Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] John Coe - host: Hi, I am John Coe and welcome to icons of DC Area Real Estate, a one-on-one interview show featuring the backgrounds career trajectories and insights of the top luminaries in the Washington DC area real estate market. The purpose of the show was to explore their journeys, how they got started, the pivotal moments that shaped their careers and the lessons they've learned along the way.
[00:00:35] John Coe - host: We also dive into their current work industry trends and some fascinating behind the scenes stories that bring unique perspective to our industry commercial real estate. Before I introduce our guest for today's show, I am excited to share some significant news regarding the future of the iconic journey in CRE community.
[00:00:58] John Coe - host: After much deliberation and with the full support of our board, we've made the strategic decision to transition our community activities and membership over to the new organization called Station dc. Amid 2026, my wife and I are relocating to the Hudson Valley, New York. This move, while exciting for us personally, makes it difficult to think about managing a membership community long distance.
[00:01:28] John Coe - host: This transition ensures that the vibrant spirit and networking opportunities you've come to value will continue and grow Station DC. Led by executive director James Barley is building a powerful future where American Tech dominance endures with DC as its nerve center. While their core mission is rooted in defense and hard tech, we've identified significant alignment in areas such as innovation, mentorship, and ethical leadership.
[00:02:01] John Coe - host: One of our board members, Sam Glass of Artist Advisors, as agreed to be a Lia liaison for the members of the I-J-C-R-E community transitioning to station DC to keep the spirit of the real estate investment and entrepreneurship alive with networking and tour opportunities. This move offers incredible benefits to you, our me, to our members.
[00:02:30] John Coe - host: You as members gain access to interdisciplinary networking with founders, policy makers and investors, government and military leaders, potentially opening doors for fundraising and new business opportunities previously beyond the scope of our real estate focused group station. DC also provides a physical clubhouse in Noma, opening in the third week of September where you can work, meet, and collaborate.
[00:02:58] John Coe - host: Furthermore, our members will benefit from discounted access with an annual membership fee of $500 a significant value compared to their standard 1500 to two 2020 $500 fee. While James Barley had preferred not to set up a formal real estate subgroup, an informal real estate oriented activities, networking and programming can absolutely continue among our members.
[00:03:25] John Coe - host: Within this, this broader dynamic environment, it's seen as a growth brand and a muscular antidote to DC's decline offering a founder centric community. Now, what does this mean for the elements you've come to rely on? Well, ongoing community engagement, including our mastermind groups, will wind down due to the lack of interest.
[00:03:49] John Coe - host: As part of this transition, I wanna assure you that the icons of DC Area Real Estate Podcast, the Ethical Leadership Blog that I started earlier this year, and the personalized career counseling opportunities that I offer and have been offering for many years will continue. I will also continue to host the monthly tours and the Ask Me Anything events as I have been over the last several months until my relocation.
[00:04:20] John Coe - host: In, in May of of 2026, my podcast, which has over 137 episodes and 65,000 downloads, remains a valuable asset and will revert back to co enterprises my private entity. After the My Move in the Future, I will share the vision for its ongoing services. We believe this is the most viable path forward offering a muscular anecdote for growth and founder centric community.
[00:04:51] John Coe - host: Thank you for your incredible support and for being a part of this journey. We look forward to seeing our legacy thrive within Station dc. Welcome to another episode of Icons of DC Area Real Estate. In today's episode, we're thrilled to feature Jamie Weinbaum, who serves as the third president and CEO and nearly a 70 year history of Horning Brothers, which is now known as Horning Horning Brothers.
[00:05:18] John Coe - host: Horning is a family owned company known for its diverse portfolio, including affordable, conventional, and mixed income housing, as well as retail and mixed use projects. Jamie's path to his leadership role is quite unique, marked by a significant pivot from law to real estate development. His passion for the built environment and cities began in childhood where he was sketching out models for houses and playing with Legos.
[00:05:47] John Coe - host: He found that traditional legal practice wasn't clicking and connecting for him, leading him to realize that aligning his passions with his profession would lead to a happier life and much more successful career. His first development job was actually entrepreneurial home renovations in Atlanta, where he did as a side hustle while practicing law.
[00:06:12] John Coe - host: He views the developer as the conductor of the orchestra, overseeing many different sections and subject matter experts to bring projects to life. Jamie learned to appreciate being on the ownership side of development, contrasting it with transactional work as he feels more invested when he's part of the story.
[00:06:33] John Coe - host: For years and years, his diverse experiences shaped him a crucial short-lived period at EYA confirmed his desire to be in the industry, even as the 2008 downturn led to his departure, his subsequent time in D the DC government running the Office of Zoning was a crash course in leadership. Teaching him about humility, listening, and bringing a sense of mission to a team.
[00:07:01] John Coe - host: At JBG companies, he gained invaluable experience in the fast paced multidisciplinary environment, learning to mitigate risk and value optionality in deals. His role subsequently at Mid-City further immersed him in family owned company dynamics and the challenges of entitlements, particularly with advocates who sometimes stalled projects intended for affordable housing.
[00:07:27] John Coe - host: Now at Horning Brothers, Jamie is focused on bringing the company into a future-oriented mindset whilst staying true to its roots. He describes Hoing as a mission driven for profit organization dedicated to developing and managing diverse high quality communities with a strong commitment to affordable housing.
[00:07:49] John Coe - host: This includes leveraging creative financing like the recent acquisition of Closet Towers and Hyattsville Maryland with support from Amazon's housing equity fund to lock in long-term affordability for residents. Jamie emphasizes Horning Brothers Hornings deep commitment to community service interfacing daily with residents to understand their needs and provide support.
[00:08:17] John Coe - host: Jamie aims for integration rather than balance in his life, ensuring his family, career, friends, and community are all nurtured for a sense of wholeness, as he calls it. Join us as Jamie shares his wealth of experience and his vision for the future of the, of real estate in the DC area. Thank you for joining us.
[00:08:42] John Coe - host: So Jamie Weinbaum, welcome to icons of DC Area Real Estate. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you so much, John, for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So, about 2018, I approached you when you were chairing Uli Washington and I said, let's, could we consider doing a local podcast here? And I had not even come up with any ideas, but I did the, the, the, the model was Leading Voices, which is Matt Schleps podcast, which at that time was sponsored by ULI, nationally or internationally.
[00:09:15] John Coe - host: And he had interviewed one person, one group here in Washington, and I said, gee, more needs to be done here in Washington. I'd like to do a local one. So I asked you and you said you didn't have it in the budget,
[00:09:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: so clearly shows you my, my good sense I missed on that one. That was, that was, that was our error and, and mine and I, I have to say kudos to you.
[00:09:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Congratulations on all you've Well, thank you. Accomplished with it very much. It's obviously sort of seminal listening for anybody in our industry, in, in the region who wants to learn from really people who have vast and, and, uh, differing experiences about, about what it takes. Mm-hmm. Understanding the different, you know, cycles and how people survive and.
[00:09:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, and, and have rebirth. It's really fascinating to listen, so I thank you, congratulate on what you've done.
[00:10:05] John Coe - host: Appreciate that. So, as president and CEO of Horing Brothers, the company's third CEO in its history, could you describe the scope of your role and your primary responsibilities now, Jamie?
[00:10:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, of course.
[00:10:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I oversee day-to-day operations of the company as well as laying the groundwork for all of the strategic, you know, matters that we're considering. So I work with, uh, vertically integrated team. We oversee development, asset management, investment on behalf of the Horing family, as well as property management.
[00:10:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So we manage our portfolio in its entirety. Our portfolio now has about 5,000 units under management and maybe about 600,000 feet of retail all in and around the Washington region. We have a pretty diverse product type within that from suburban large garden style communities and Frederick, Maryland and Fredericksburg, Virginia to high rise communities in DC and the van Ness corridor on Connecticut Avenue.
[00:11:13] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: To middle market housing in and around Brooklyn, like the cloisters and whatnot. And then we have a lot of affordable communities as well, east of the river. And in northeast DC we have project based section eight. We have low income housing tax credit communities, we rent control communities. So it's interesting to be both geographically, you know, entirely tied to a region, but within that region to have the opportunity to have explored so many different product types.
[00:11:41] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. Within the residential space. And then as far as the commercial, we have strip shopping centers. We have a headquarters for Martha's Table, which is a whole story that we built a a headquarters for them that we own and manage. And then we have the Tivoli, which was a historic renovation in Columbia Heights that has grocery store, ground floor, retail, and office space as well.
[00:12:04] John Coe - host: So I'd like to get dive much deeper into the corporate history, also the disciplines that you have in the firm as well as your team and the whole thing later. But as I usually like to do, I want to get back to your origin story a little bit, Jamie, if I could. So if you could share with me where you grew up and a little bit about your educational background, et cetera, if you would.
[00:12:25] John Coe - host: Sure,
[00:12:26] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: sure. I grew up in northern Westchester about New York, about an hour outside of New York City, and was always somebody who had an interest in the built environment. I was. I was that kid who was sketching out models for houses and I was always interested when I'd go and see a new house or a new building, how it worked.
[00:12:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I even as a
[00:12:46] John Coe - host: child, you were
[00:12:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I went into to career day for my son the other day and I was talking about how everybody should have graph paper and be sketching out houses if they're interested in that, that work. So you play with
[00:12:59] John Coe - host: Legos as a kid too? Oh my
[00:13:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: God, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. For, for far too many years did I, and I play that with them now with my, with my son. So it's, it's a, it's a passion.
[00:13:11] John Coe - host: So it's architecture on your, on your horizon at one point, or, you know,
[00:13:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: it, it was for a bit. I think that I, I, I think that I liked the creativity side of, of design, but I think that, you know, some of the, the science side of it and, and, and the technical side was a little less appealing to me.
[00:13:31] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Oh, okay. Being that subject matter expert. So it was sort of out there as something I was interested in. But, you know, growing up I couldn't really figure out, nor did I spend much time trying to think about how to marry up the things that I was genuinely interested in, with what I would do for my profession, I think.
[00:13:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. For whatever reason, that was never really in the off, it was just not something that I spent a lot of time thinking about. And it wasn't until later when I went in a different path and a, in a particular path with respect to law that. I, I had a pivot moment, which I'm happy to talk about.
[00:14:04] John Coe - host: Yeah, sure.
[00:14:05] John Coe - host: So, you know, nu numbers weren't your thing as much more you were interested in reading and
[00:14:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes.
[00:14:11] John Coe - host: And, you know
[00:14:12] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. Politics, language, language history. Right. Yeah. Those kinds of things. And where'd you go to college? More creative. I went to Wake Forest University. Wake Forest. Sure. Which was what gets you
[00:14:22] John Coe - host: down there from Westchester County?
[00:14:24] John Coe - host: That's interesting.
[00:14:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think that I, I, I liked the idea. I think at the time it was like, oh, there's kind of this band of universities mm-hmm. Kind of the Southern Ivys as, as they were called at the time. Sure. So I remember going down and looking at UVA and Chapel Hill and Duke and Washington Lee, and some of these universities.
[00:14:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Why Wake? It was for me, at that stage in my life, a good mix of big university opportunities in a smaller, a little more, I think it's probably the
[00:14:55] John Coe - host: smallest T two school. Yes. If I'm not mistaken.
[00:14:57] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think. I think it is. Yeah. And it's, it's definitely, you get all of those big opportunities. Right. But it's 4,500 undergrad.
[00:15:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. It's a beautiful campus. It's a gorgeous campus. And I think it, it, it really did marry up well to where I was at that stage in my life. At 18 years old. It was like, it was enough. You know, I think some of those bigger universities would've been. Pretty daunting for me. But I was able to also not be at a school that, you know, didn't have a lot of opportunity.
[00:15:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It has incredible opportunities there.
[00:15:23] John Coe - host: Yeah. So it's a
[00:15:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: great mix.
[00:15:25] John Coe - host: So what did you major in though while you were there?
[00:15:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I was a politics major. Okay. And a Spanish minor. All right. Studied abroad and SSON Spain mm-hmm. For six months. And was sort of driving towards pre-law with the thought. My father's an attorney with the thought that a law degree would be a good degree to have and, and a little bit of a snooze button of sorts mm-hmm.
[00:15:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: To figure out what I really wanted to do. And so that was an easy way to say, well, I'm headed to law school.
[00:15:53] John Coe - host: Did you do that right away, or, and I did it right
[00:15:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: away, yes. Okay. Yes, yes. Yeah. And where did
[00:15:57] John Coe - host: you end up at Boston? Uh,
[00:15:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: so that's what brought me to Washington dc I, I went to GW School of Law, gw. Okay.
[00:16:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And moved up here in the summer of 1998.
[00:16:05] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. So how was your experience at gw?
[00:16:09] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was great. I mean, I, I, I certainly fell in love with, with our city. Mm-hmm. I mean, that was, that was a wonderful place. It was incredible. Well, well, you're,
[00:16:17] John Coe - host: you're immersed in the city at gw.
[00:16:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes. You're in. That's the city.
[00:16:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And it was a great time. I mean, like the, you know, the MCI center had just opened Right. You know, capital One. Right. Sure. And so, you know, you saw sort of the rebound, I guess it was, I moved here in summer of 98. It was the end of Barry's term, so right at the end
[00:16:35] John Coe - host: of the financial control board. Yes, yes,
[00:16:38] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: exactly.
[00:16:38] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think, I think Mayor Williams started in beginning of 99, so Yeah, it was right then. Right. And so I love the city.
[00:16:44] John Coe - host: You basically with the ground floor, the Renaissance city. I, I
[00:16:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: think that's right. More or less. I think that was a great time to come in and watch this upswing and whatnot. So, so I loved the city.
[00:16:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was socially wonderful. I made a tremendous amount of great, of good friends at in law school. And I think what I came to learn upon reflection is that. GW is, you know, it puts you into a program and you know, for somebody sort of young and impressionable and who wants to succeed and is used to having a level of success, you start going from ring to ring trying to make sure you're accomplishing all of the different things that they're putting out before you.
[00:17:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it's getting on a journal or getting, you know, doing a moot court or getting a summer associate position mm-hmm. Or a clerkship, right. All of these things. And so it, it, it, it lays out for you to, to reach for. But again, I don't think I was reflective about what, what I wanted as much. I think I just sort of did the thing and had a good experience and, and had, you know, academic success and, and accomplish those things that I mentioned, but did not take a beat to question what I wanted to do.
[00:17:51] John Coe - host: Well, being in Washington and since politics was your undergrad, you must have been in heaven being here to some extent. It was very
[00:18:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: interesting. Yeah, it was. It was like I had some wow moments, I mean Right. I remember, I remember before I started at law school going out to, with my mom was in town and we went to, I think it was the prime rib the night in early August of 98, when.
[00:18:18] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Bill Clinton admitted to the Monica Lewinsky affair. I think that was August of 98. I think that's right. And it was like shocking. And it was like, this is happening like four blocks from where I am. Mm-hmm. You know, like you just, you have those pinch me moments. I mean, even now I'll be watching a State of the Union address and I'll be like, oh my God, that's like two miles away.
[00:18:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: This is
[00:18:40] John Coe - host: wild. Well, the, the moment like that for me in the city was nine 11. Oh, of course. Sure. I was downtown at that time. Yeah. I wasn't, I wasn't working there. I was at a meeting Yeah. In the basement of the Washington Hill. Yeah. And when the, when the, the plane hit the Pentagon. I was pulling out of a parking garage and heard it on the radio just as I came out.
[00:19:01] John Coe - host: I'll never forget. Unbelievable. That moment. Yeah. And I was in a, I was supposed to go to another meeting further downtown from the Hilton, and I live in Montgomery County, so I said, I think we're gonna go north now.
[00:19:13] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. Smart move. Smart move. Yeah. I was clerking for a judge of the court of federal claims.
[00:19:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Oh, you were? And that, if you know where the court building is, it looks right over onto Lafayette Park.
[00:19:24] John Coe - host: Yeah.
[00:19:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so we were up in the judge's chambers and we're looking out the window and we see the smoke in the distance from the Pentagon. And I shockingly never seen anything like it in my life. You see people running out of the White House gates running through Lafayette Park away from the White House.
[00:19:43] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And when you see people running from the White House. Yeah. And I said, we're leaving. And, and as did, as did our judge and, and we all took off north. So yeah, I've had a similar experience. Why?
[00:19:55] John Coe - host: Because as we all know, there was another plane coming
[00:19:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: towards the White House. Yeah, yeah. Incredible. Just incredible.
[00:20:03] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was,
[00:20:04] John Coe - host: imagine if that had happened.
[00:20:05] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I know, I know. It's just, I, I think about that sometimes. It's really incredible about that with a capitol. Yeah. So anyhow, anyway,
[00:20:13] John Coe - host: we have some, we took a tangent, interesting histories here in the city. Yes, we do. No question. So you, you, after law school, then you clerked and that, was that your first job?
[00:20:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes, that was my first, first job clerking the court of claims. Mm-hmm. For the chief judge there, which was a, a, a great experience and enjoyed that quite a bit and had lined up a job at Reed Smith, a law firm, and so Oh, sure. I went there when I finished clerking after two years.
[00:20:42] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. Is that when you got into the real estate sector?
[00:20:45] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, that was when I started, honestly, as a side hustle, investing in real estate. Oh. It was the first time I had, you know, a couple nickels and decided that I was interested in figuring out how I had an entrepreneurial bug, how could I contribute and be in the industry in some, in some form or fashion.
[00:21:05] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so I have a good friend who lives in Atlanta actually, who. Was in real estate and talking to me about, you know, neighborhoods within Atlanta where Sure. There were a lot of home renovations. Yeah. And so I started going down there and eventually bought homes, hired GCs in Atlanta. In Atlanta, which was not easy when I was working a law firm.
[00:21:26] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I was flying down there every weekend. It was, yeah. It was a commitment, but I was, it was a, a different entry point to purchase homes. Mm-hmm. And renovate them. And so I, I had a sort of a niche and, and somebody down there I knew. And so I did that for a bit. And Had you done construction work before? I had not done construction work before.
[00:21:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I mean, I was not, I, we had GCs, but, oh, you hired people? Yes, we hired a gc. Okay. We worked a few of the houses with, but just going, figuring out the financing, figuring out what we wanted to build, you know, looking at the economics, seeing the market trends. So that was
[00:22:01] John Coe - host: your first development job? Exactly.
[00:22:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That's essentially what it was. It was a small scale way of, of sort of figuring out and testing the market. That's cool. And had some successes there while practicing law. I was doing government contracts and contracts work, and then got into some construction law and then I ended up moving over to Sfar Shaw, another, you know, terrific firm.
[00:22:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And was, it was there that I started to have my, my aha moment
[00:22:27] John Coe - host: to work with my friend Ron Gart.
[00:22:29] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Ron was not there at the time. Okay. That I was there. I think he came, I left s Farth in. Oh seven. Right. And I think he came a little after that.
[00:22:38] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[00:22:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So, so yeah. So, so practicing for total of about, about six years while I, while I figured out, you know, started to have those moments of question, so when, when did the pivot occur and
[00:22:51] John Coe - host: out of law and why?
[00:22:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think I got to a point in, in summer and fall of 2006 where I realized, you know, okay, I've, I've now gone from one firm to another firm. I understand a little more about the practice of law. I see a path laying out before me. I was maybe a fourth or fifth year associate or what, whatnot. And it's not clicking and connecting for me and, and my wife, my fiance at the time, and I sat down and she really just, you know, she's a, she's worked as a consultant before and pulled out a legal pad and we sort of stripped it down and she said, you know, what is it that is isn't unsatisfying?
[00:23:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I said, listen, it's, it's that when I sit down at my desk at nine in the morning till I leave at seven, the stuff I do in the middle doesn't really do it for me. And she said, well, that's a problem. So if you're not really enjoying it. And I realized that I am somebody who has a lot of different passions and interests and things that are captivating to me and engage me.
[00:23:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that. Those things that give me lift and and pleasure in life were not where I was spending my time professionally. Mm-hmm. And I don't think I was as good at it. And I sort of, in talking to her and in thinking about it, realized if I could actually spend my time and marry up my passions with my profession mm-hmm.
[00:24:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That I would have a happier life and a much more successful career. So how did you figure
[00:24:26] John Coe - host: it out?
[00:24:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: When we stripped it down, it was, all right, well what are the things that you're interested in? Mm-hmm. And I, and I started just a couple of concurrent lists of things. I mean, it was as simple as, okay, well I like, you know, fitness, would I ever wanna own a gym?
[00:24:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And what would that look like? And could I, you know, be in that industry in some capacity? And then it was, well, I've renovated some homes and I like real estate and I like the built environment in cities. I don't even think I had the words at the time for what that was. Right. But I just knew I enjoyed things having to do with politics and buildings and cities.
[00:24:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And So you were brainstorming basically that was brainstorming. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And, and it was a enough of a thread that when I remember having sort of the first few coffees when I would call people, this is pre LinkedIn, and you had to go on the company's website and try to figure out who worked at what company.
[00:25:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. How you can get the phone number and approach somebody. It was that one conversation that began another conversation and another. It was as soon as it was like light coming into a room. Mm-hmm. It was like, oh my God. Okay. I like this. I like, I like this. That they're saying, I, I think this would be fascinating.
[00:25:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I didn't look back. As soon as I had those first few conversations, it was clear I want to do that.
[00:25:42] John Coe - host: So do you remember one moment that
[00:25:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: just said, this is it, this is what I want to do? Oh God. There were, there were a number of moments. I, I'll I'll tell you the, the conversation I had with AJ Jackson, who is now Yes.
[00:25:56] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Leo Capital as part of GG he's also a guest of mine. Uh, wonderful. All right. Well help you tie it back in. He actually, and I've said this many times, was instrumental in me getting my first job in real estate development in Washington at EYA. And I remember, you know, him taking the time and sitting down at lunch with him in Bethesda Cafe Deluxe at the time, and, and talking about the industry.
[00:26:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, and it was as simple as tell me about a typical day. And maybe there is no typical day. Sure. But tell me about yesterday and the kinds of, of, of experience he had, the kind of meetings where he was putting his time. It was, it was, it was energy enhancing. For me, thinking about being in that space each day, going from one meeting to another, it wasn't, mm-hmm.
[00:26:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It wasn't draining. It was, it was the opposite. It was so inspiring to me to hear about how he's meeting with communities or he's considering what we might build at a particular site, or he's dealing with legal issues. But from the standpoint of ownership and, and what I started to grasp was that, and I don't think this is spoken about enough, there is not a right or wrong on this, but there is a distinction between being on the ownership side and being more of a consultant or an advisor.
[00:27:15] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I think a portion of my dissatisfaction in practicing law was I didn't like in particular, being at a law firm as an associate, the fact that I would come in for a particular sliver of a matter, be asked to look at this particular thorny issue, research, write a memo, talk to a client, and then pick it up and then put it down.
[00:27:36] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And you never know the rest of the story. You don't necessarily know where it goes. You move on, at least in the kind of practice I was doing and what I loved about talking to AJ and later. Came to be true in practicing, you know, and being in real estate development is, you know, you are there for years and years.
[00:27:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. If you do it right, you're part of the story. These things take a long time, but you're seeped in it and you feel a part of mm-hmm. Of that responsibility. And I think I am much more invested in something than I feel that ownership in. And I just know, you know, there are plenty of people love being consultant and they, they love the hot potato.
[00:28:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: They pick it up, they put it down, and they move on to the next thing. And that's just not as much how I'm wired. And so that was an interesting thing to me. Well, I'll
[00:28:16] John Coe - host: make two observations. One is you don't, it sounds like you're not quote transactional as much. Mm-hmm. And whereas brokers and attorneys are more transactional, in my experience, at least in the transactional law side and brokers, you know, a DHD, they will not, you know, put Right.
[00:28:34] John Coe - host: Move on to the next deal. Exactly. You know, and, and, and have 20 or 30 deals going at the same time or that, that thought process just a lot. Whereas developers, as you said, stretch, you know, work, dive into something and get really immersed and stay with it for quite some time, but wanna see the beginning to the end if they can.
[00:28:53] John Coe - host: Yes.
[00:28:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: If they can.
[00:28:55] John Coe - host: Some people's entire careers are one deal. So, and that's, I've seen that actually I was in the regional mall business when I first, early in my career and I didn't, I only saw very slivers of a project. 'cause you'd have to be. 10, 15 years Right. To do from beginning of a deal to the end.
[00:29:12] John Coe - host: Anyway,
[00:29:12] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think it's a great observation. I agree
[00:29:14] John Coe - host: that one agree entirely. And then the other is the multidisciplinary approach. Mm-hmm. Where in, in law you're really focused on one aspect of it. Yes. You don't, you don't see the best, the whole picture. Whereas if you're in development Yeah. You see probably eight to 10 different disciplines simultaneously on a project, if not more.
[00:29:34] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, John, it it's fascinating that you say that the way that I, simplest way that I describe being real estate development leader and, and we can talk about the horning side and leading a company, but I have often felt like you're the conductor of the orchestra. That's right. Right. You have so many different Exactly.
[00:29:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Sections and, and subject matter experts. Right. I'm not gonna be the, the drummer and, and be able to match them, you know, beat for beat. But I see aspects of how they all have to fit together. That's right. Pattern matching. Yeah. And so, you know, part of what I've learned from other mentors I've had over the years is you have to figure out what is your style to get the best out of everybody.
[00:30:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. Genuinely show respect to folks who have a subject matter expertise that you do not possess, and that it is not of the best use of your time to try to possess it or match them year for year on their structural engineering expertise. It is trying to show respect, but also understand that there aspects of the deal that they don't understand that you see because you're seeing how it all fits together.
[00:30:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: A big picture. So I think the conductor, you know,
[00:30:42] John Coe - host: bill comparison, well, bill, bill Hard, another big developer in town Yeah. Who's now retired, was with Elco, used the idea of a marionette or a, A puppeteer. Similar. Right. He looked at it at that way. Yeah. Which to me is very analogous to a conductor of an orchestra.
[00:30:57] John Coe - host: Yeah, agreed. Because you're basically controlling it, you know, in the big source, but you know, you are relying on other factors to make it happen. Exactly. Which is interesting. I'm gonna buy a baton, so whatever that's called. There you go. Yeah. I've just, you know, I am just so passionate about the real estate industry because of that aspect of it.
[00:31:17] John Coe - host: There are very few other industries that have that. Unless you, as you say, if you're a conductor of an orchestra, you have to understand each of the instruments and how they're, how they work, and maybe even play half a dozen of 'em yourself. Just understand it. Yeah. Now, as a developer, my experience is, is there are three disciplines that you need to know extremely well on the big picture, communications, analytics.
[00:31:43] John Coe - host: And design and or structure form. Mm-hmm. And you can be strong in two of those and be very good. If you're strong in all three, you're, you know, yeah. One in a million really, really strong. But you need at least two to be good, I think. What do you you agree with that?
[00:32:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I agree with that. I think that's a, that's very well put.
[00:32:03] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I think that, and, and when you talk about multidisciplinary, I mean, if you think about it, if you're just strong in one area or a subset of one area, right? You're, you're, you can be a subject matter expert in a piece of this, but to be strong, you know, you, you have to have a broader general understanding.
[00:32:20] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. I've heard people say sometimes, and I don't agree with it, this sort of jack of all trade, master of none. And I don't think that's the case. You, you need a level of mastery. It's just different type of mastery. It's not that you're just some vague generalist who walks in and points a couple things out and walks out now.
[00:32:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I mean, if you're gonna be successful, you're, you're seeped in it. It's just that, it's the interrelation of those various disciplines. Exactly. That is very important.
[00:32:47] John Coe - host: So you have to be very knowledgeable at the numbers. Yeah. You gotta know those numbers, like inside out and backwards and forwards. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:54] John Coe - host: 'cause you're making presentations all the time. Every decision you make has a, a relative on what it's gonna cost to get it done. How you know what the cost and what the rents might do to deliver it. All that. So you've gotta understand that really, really well. And then you have to be able to explain it.
[00:33:13] John Coe - host: To every source that you can think of, including community people that have no idea what real estate is, all the way to the most, you know, gifted experts you're gonna talk to in the architectural side, and conveying why it makes sense to do certain things and then show it economically, and then also show the design factors that made it make a difference.
[00:33:36] John Coe - host: So an example of all this I talk about is when, when I interviewed Vicki Davis and she talks about how she went and partnered with jbg mm-hmm. And actually taught them about a project that she worked on, on Des on redesigning a project, which I said, whoa, if you were able to do that, Becky, that's impressive.
[00:33:55] John Coe - host: Anyway, I'll just, I have to go back and listen to that episode. It was, it was pretty special. So you practiced a law, you went, you were clerk for an attorney and you went to work for UIA, is that the first job?
[00:34:11] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. So, so getting back to the sort of story of, of, of how I, AJ pivoted. Yeah. And aj I mean, it was, it was.
[00:34:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Eight months, I recall from when I really officially started my investigation into switching fields to when I started at EYA and I was, one of my proudest accomplishments was I remember I ended up with three different offers from, from well regarded shops to go in as a real estate development executive.
[00:34:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I really did, to your point earlier, demonstrate that what I had done in, in, you know, renovating homes was real estate development on a smaller scale. And that I wanted to do it in the multifamily space. I knew I wanted to be in housing, I knew I wanted to be in this region. I knew I wanted to work on impactful projects mm-hmm.
[00:34:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: In communities across the region. And so ultimately decided to go to EYA and join there in 2007, which will become relevant in a moment in the time that I joined. But every day was more of an aha moment that this was the right call. It was, I have never had a, a more sort of revelatory experience than waking up each day and being like, so excited to get to work because I loved what I was doing.
[00:35:26] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And I felt a lot of pride in the fact that I had. I had gotten to that point that I had been able to do it, that I had been able to pivot. It was not lost on me that I So were you a project manager when you started? I was a project manager. Yep. Yep. I don't remember the, the title. Maybe it's Development Executive, but effectively I was working with, with Akosh The Car and with AJ and Jack Lester's there and Bob Young to, and working on a number of the active projects that were going on at the time.
[00:35:54] John Coe - host: Strat Bar might have been one of them.
[00:35:56] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: What I, I was working on Arts District Hyattsville. Arts District. Hyattsville. Okay. I was working on the project in Brooklyn that became, it was St. Paul's, it became, it'll come to me on, on fourth Street, Northeast, their town home development. There I was doing a little bit of early work on McMillan, which is why Oh,
[00:36:12] John Coe - host: sure.
[00:36:13] John Coe - host: Yeah. Given
[00:36:14] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: that, that's still being built out now. Yeah. Here we are. And a few other, few other things. And it was fantastic. It was terrific. I love the diversity in an average day of all the different things as we spoke about that I was, I was touching and working with and it was a real confirmation that this was the right move.
[00:36:31] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And I was, I was, and remain extremely grateful to have found the industry. And we can talk more about this. I know you have some general questions at the end about, about your perspective on this industry, but for me, I have never since that moment lost sight of being really, really grateful and appreciative to have found it and gotten my way in here.
[00:36:51] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I felt like I had found a, found a doorway in. And I think it does reward a level of grit and determination and. Genuine interest to get in. I don't think it's something, I mean, there are, there are are exceptions, but I don't think it's something that people just sort of fall into. Right. I think for me, I had to want it.
[00:37:11] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And I had to work at it and, and I loved, loved the experience at EYA, but it was short lived. Yeah. Um, after about nine months, by the spring of 2008, as things, you know, in real estate and then subsequently elsewhere were starting to crumble, they had to make some tough cuts and really downsize the company and cut in half.
[00:37:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so I had been basically the last one hired and said, you know, I've just found this, this, you know, identity in this place where I really feel I belong. I don't wanna go back into practicing law. I want to figure out how I can navigate these choppy waters and stay in this industry that I've found. And they were incredibly helpful in making introductions and sort of, you know, suggesting a path in the short term in the public sector, which ended up being quite fortuitous.
[00:38:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I ended up going to work for Neil Albert, who was the Deputy mayor for Planning and Economic Development at the time. And it was a particularly strong vintage, you know, as I say, of in terms of, you know, DC government, mayor Fenty had recently won election consolidated, the Anacostia Waterfront Commission and the National Capital Redevelopment Corporation all into.
[00:38:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Deputy Mayor's office. So they had a really broad portfolio of projects and there were a number of folks like me who were probably public or private sector talent that would not have normally considered the public sector. But at that moment in time, you know. Did a foray into city government. And so I was working with an incredible, you know, group of coworkers and we had an incredible venture projects and a lot of momentum and a new administration that had, you know, tremendous support from the city.
[00:38:55] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so there was a real opportunity in that period of time to get things done. And what I really learned and saw in Mayor Fenty, you know, everybody has strengths and weaknesses, of course, as a leader, but he was really good at empowering lots of people. He didn't need it to be. You know, his show he was very good at, at sharing the spotlight and encouraging people to grow.
[00:39:17] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And you saw, you know, Harry Trigon and you saw Neil and Gabe Klein and other directors of agencies, but also a lot of different personnel who got, who got some rope and young people and people who maybe hadn't had those opportunities. And so it was a fast-paced environment and one that, that I thrived in and enjoyed quite a bit.
[00:39:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I did that for about a year and a half. And then they came to me and said that the director of the Office of Zoning had was retiring and there was an opportunity. And before I knew it, I had gone from, you know, being at EYA and being let go to a year and a half later running an agency with DC within the DC government and being in the mayor's cabinet, which was really interesting to go and, and run this independent agency and, and combine my legal background with my, my passion and growing experience in real estate.
[00:40:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that ended up being just a, a, a fantastic little mini chapter as well.
[00:40:12] John Coe - host: Now did you work with her at Tru Trigon there? 'cause I know she led it at one
[00:40:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: point. So she was in Office of Planning and I was in Office of Zoning. Oh, okay. Got, we were colleagues in that regard. Got it. Okay. But the zoning office is a specific office that focuses on any applicant coming before the zoning commission.
[00:40:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. Or the Board of Zoning adjustment goes through the Office of Zoning. So it's the administrative arm. And so we were processing 250 cases a year from large scale PUDs to individual, you know, special exceptions within the ECA had,
[00:40:45] John Coe - host: had Chip Glasgow drafted the PUD legislation
[00:40:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: by that point. Um, the, well, I mean.
[00:40:51] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Well, maybe I need you to say more about what you're referring to. Well,
[00:40:54] John Coe - host: chip was involved in helping the DC government redraft their zoning laws. I, I, he told me that personally. Mm-hmm. When we sat down one time
[00:41:03] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: when I interfaced with Chip, it was more case specific. So I think, you know, the, the, the PUD system as it stands now was already in place.
[00:41:13] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Okay. This was before. Before then It was working. Been earlier, yes. Got it. I assume, I assume his work is earlier, but Right. But we, we interfaced a bunch and I got to know the zoning bar and, and the different firms, whether Holland and I or Goon or the others that were, you know, working on cases and just really got to see a lot of the inner workings within, within DC government and coordination with other agencies.
[00:41:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But what it also provided was an opportunity for me to come in as the youngest person virtually in the entire office, and being in an office that was largely made up of people of color and being sort of a younger white guy. Coming into that space was really eye-opening for me, and I learned a lot about.
[00:41:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Leadership about humility, about listening to people, about others' perspectives. And so it was a crash course, John, in leadership, to jump into a role like that and to have, you know, in some regards the least, you know, experience in a space, but still rely upon leadership skills that I had developed, but also on the fly work to develop and enhance those leadership skills.
[00:42:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Was there a
[00:42:27] John Coe - host: humbling experience that you remember from that time? Many John.
[00:42:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Many a particular one. You know, I, I think that there were moments where my desire to quote, get things done, met a reality of, you know, why, and, and, and not just being a gunner for a gunner's sake, you know, but actually having a purpose and recognizing, and this is where I think the lessons came, that to the extent that I did not bring people along, you're gonna be far afield and it's one thing to keep running 200 miles an hour, but if you don't work together mm-hmm.
[00:43:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That isn't gonna get you anywhere. I, you know, fundamentally. And that's, that's been a
[00:43:11] John Coe - host: really, well you had a private sector perspective coming into the government agency. Yes. So that's a different mindset, a different pace. Absolutely. Different thought process.
[00:43:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. And, and, and. Figuring out how to motivate individuals and to share in this idea that.
[00:43:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: These are wins for our team. Mm-hmm. Together. Mm-hmm. These aren't my individual wins or this isn't Right. An intractable place where you can't ever have wins. Like we can find ways to define success for ourselves as a team and then go out and achieve it. And that was something that I don't know, that everybody felt part of a mission and I really tried to bring that sensibility and that spirit and, you know, motivate people that way.
[00:43:56] John Coe - host: So you're able to turn the battleship a little bit?
[00:43:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: A little bit, a little bit. I got some good, got some good wins. And we accomplish things. And that's, that's what I mean is we were, you know, what is it that we can accomplish? Mm-hmm. And what would give us pride to do so? So at that particular moment in time, leveraging technology.
[00:44:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: To make the zoning process more relatable to the average resident of the District of Columbia was an important effort. So we worked a lot on the zoning maps that are mm-hmm. Like we're, we're converting from being paper maps. People used to come into the office to review in a, in a sort of head, it's spinning fashion to online maps that have gotten better and better.
[00:44:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: They've continued to iterate in the year since and have, you know, fantastic, you know, GIS resources now, we looked at a number of the zoning regulations that we could make them more user friendly to residents. You know, the, the mantra was always about how do you, you know, level the playing field. And that was really something that, that I embraced and that I worked with a team on.
[00:44:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I enjoy the experience quite a bit. I did, I was there two years and then got to a point where I said, you know, this was incredibly additive and in creative to. To, to me in the long run. But if this is not a long-term home for me, if I don't want to be necessarily a public sector guy, then it was a bit of a detour in my path.
[00:45:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But I, as I said earlier, you know, had worked so hard to intentionally choose real estate as, as a place where I wanted to see grow and build that, you know, I was, I was still a little bit on the periphery there, gaining skills in other ways that would make me more well-rounded, but not necessarily building.
[00:45:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so by 2011, middle of 2011, I saw a change enough in the economy and in our region in particular, of course. Mm-hmm. And said, Hey, I can leverage the fact that I had really amazing experiences in, in the public sector to pick a good home for me to, to grow and to get to build and what better place than JBG.
[00:46:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I networked and, and. Chatted and talked and got to know people and, and, you know, was fortunately hired there, which was, you know, a whole next chapter. Mm-hmm. It was amazing. Were you a development director there? I was, I was working as a development executive or associate. I don't remember the, the titles they used.
[00:46:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. But essentially was on a team, rod Lawrence, Tony Greenberg. Yep. Really fantastic individuals and, and a number of other folks. And, you know, the, the shop at that time and another story of a good vintage mm-hmm. Being there. Maybe I was there 2011 to the end of 14. It was before they went public. There were tremendous amount of projects.
[00:46:50] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was an enormous development team. I mean, it was like 50 people in the development group. It was massive.
[00:46:55] John Coe - host: I had, I had two big meetings with that team you just mentioned. Yeah. In 2011 and 12, we were pitching, I was in the financing side for CTL lender and we looked at the HHS project, which is one of the largest projects JB G's ever developed.
[00:47:13] John Coe - host: Massive. And then the other one was the project. Yes. Yes. Which were both huge. Yeah, sure. Government, yeah. Deals. And we had the lease and we tried to underwrite it based on a CTL structure, which they had done for the Department of Transportation building earlier. I think that was the first one they had done.
[00:47:32] John Coe - host: Yes. Yes. And so I remember sitting down with Rob Stewart and talking about it, and then he said, you know, you go talk to Rod and everybody else here that's on the team. And then on the finance side it was Brian Gould and let's see, I think, I can't remember who else was, it might have been Leslie Ludwig at the time.
[00:47:49] John Coe - host: Yes. One or two of them. So we were actively pitching it, but we didn't win. Unfortunately. We tried really hard. But those, that's, those are the projects I assume you were involved in peripherally?
[00:48:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. I mean, so, so Rod was more focused, you know, on office, federal government tenant and whatnot. And I, with Tony was really on the multifamily side.
[00:48:12] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Oh, okay. Specifically. Yeah. So in the shadow of Nyad and HHS in the Twin Brook area in Rockville was where a few of our projects were. Right. So I was working on a joint development, under a joint development agreement with Wada mm-hmm. To redevelop the Twin Brook metro station. And Tony had overseen the construction of one of the first buildings over there on that side of, of the pike called the Aire.
[00:48:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I worked on the second building called the Toronto. These are all very close to Naya, just on the other side of Twinbrook Parkway, closer to the metro. So that was one exciting project, and trying to figure out future phases, which was
[00:48:47] John Coe - host: North Bethesda in that mix for you as well, that not,
[00:48:50] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: there was another team working on Nobi, as they call it.
[00:48:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes. But, uh, but at that time was when the phases were going up, right. The whole foods and all the, the, the high rise and the mid-rise and all that was going on. So different teams. There were so
[00:49:02] John Coe - host: many projects. It's interesting how I lived not far from there. Mm-hmm. And that's now become the new white flint, basically.
[00:49:09] John Coe - host: Yeah. Because when the mall closed Yeah, it was a vacuum there. Yes, of course, you know, federal's, you know, big, massive pastor project, Martin Pike and Rose absorbed a lot of that. But I think your, that project now, I went there, I don't know, it was two months ago. I, I couldn't find a parking space. It was so busy.
[00:49:28] John Coe - host: Really? Wow. Just jammed packed. Yeah. That's
[00:49:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: fascinating. Yeah. How things move around. Crowded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it, it, that, that project went through a number of different iterations over time and how it's been seen and viewed. Right. But, yeah, but no, JBG was so many different teams, you know, advancing the ball so quickly.
[00:49:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: There was definitely some, a commonality to, or to my experience, the deputy Mayor's office of, you know, passion and speed and urgency that I felt, you know, sort of consumed into, which was, was really interesting and compelling to me. I also was quite fortunate, fortunate in that during my time there, I, the one thing I had not really done is overseen a lot of construction and I was able to build there, which was really critically important.
[00:50:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You can be at a shop like that for. Three years, four years, 10 years and not built. You could be in entitlement world or Oh, yeah. You know, whatever it is that you're doing. It just depends. Development is a very multi-phase project. Yes. And many, many years and all. Of course. So I walked in and almost immediately we were building a parking garage for WADA that would free up land for future phases of development around Twin Brooks.
[00:50:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So oversaw that parking garage. Then did the design entitlement and entitlement design and, and financing for that project. Toronto and in Twinbrook I mentioned, and at the same time we were working on for Totten Square in dc. Another mid-rise. Right. And that was fascinating because that was, you know, working on one of the first mixed use projects with Walmart as the anchor tenant.
[00:51:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so, so many different complications of trying to build 350 apartments above a Walmart when the guys from Walmart are used to such site control. Absolutely no constraints. And now we are trying to tell 'em where they can have their, wasn't that one
[00:51:18] John Coe - host: of at least three Walmart mixed use developments? You guys did one in Tyson's
[00:51:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: as I remember.
[00:51:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So the, yes. So Tyson's 77 H was the first one, right? Tyson's and Fort Toten Square, but only 77 H And, and for Totten had a residential component to them. Right. So we were the two that got built 77 H and then for Totten with apartments over at Walmart. And I don't know if they did that elsewhere in the country, but they were treated from that model.
[00:51:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it's tough. I mean, you know,
[00:51:50] John Coe - host: it's the one on Georgia Avenue
[00:51:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: that, that didn't have residential? No residential. It's just a, it's just a Walmart. Yeah, and then they were trying to do the one Capital Gateway project, which has been long stalled and then they pulled outta that. That was the one on East Capital, so Right.
[00:52:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. There were six. Six announced in the district. Yep. And I think three got built. Yeah, I know Gary Rappaport was involved with one of them that got as well. Yes. Yeah, so I think, right. It was, I'm pretty sure it was 77 H for Toon, Georgia Avenue. Those three got built was Skyland, was the other one, and then Skyland.
[00:52:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, east Cap. And I
[00:52:25] John Coe - host: thought there was one,
[00:52:26] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: you might have been on the zoning commission at the time, and those were all done, I'm guessing. Yeah, there was, yeah, there was definitely some that, that came through in my time. It's really funny, John, because so many different cases came through and I sign so many orders and every once in a while I'll be working on a project and I'll look up something and here's my signature on an order for, I
[00:52:44] John Coe - host: guess that my, you probably even today see that looking at deals still.
[00:52:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Oh, people will text me every once in a while, a photo of my signature to say, I guess my order. Okay, so JBG two years, three and a half. Three and half. Three and a half. Three and a half. Yeah. Okay. I was there from I think mid 11 to end of 14. Yeah. And worked on those projects and a number of other things I, I advised on and, and was involved in some fits and starts on other projects that didn't, didn't go at that time, but, but a fantastic group of coworkers and so many different things that I, that I witnessed and saw and learned from just by being there and incredibly hard workers.
[00:53:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think that was the job that I worked. So hard at. And I think for me, kind of my takeaway when I reflect back on that time is that I was truly thrown in and found that my, for me, what I observed of myself at that time and in, in working with some of the folks there, is that my skillset was pretty uneven in terms of, you know, real estate development, let alone real estate overall.
[00:53:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. As you said, it's such a, such a broad portfolio of things you can work on and you can be strong in one area and really weak or, or just an experience than another. And so I really try to dive into those areas where I had less experience, less expertise. Yeah. And just try to get stronger. And it was very important to me to be well-rounded.
[00:54:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I think that that came from having a non-traditional background. I mean, look, a legal degree is not totally crazy, but I didn't have the MBA that many of my colleagues at JBG had, and that little bit of, I don't wanna call it a chip on my shoulder, but that, that acknowledgement or recognition that I didn't have a straight up, you know, straightforward education in the space Right.
[00:54:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Led me to feel like, wow, I've gotta, I, I'm a little self-taught here. I've gotta dig in and figure some of this out. Well,
[00:54:42] John Coe - host: JVG was founded by three attorneys. There you go. That's a good point. So they figured it out. They, and then some knew that law wasn't. Now I've never sat, I have not sat down with Ben Jacobs.
[00:54:53] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. And that would be an, an illuminating conversation, honestly. Sure. But I have sat down with Matt Kelly with Moines of Energy with most recently Evan Reagan Levine. Sure. So I understand where they are now and where they've been over the last 10 years. Yes. But before that, of course, only Rob Stewart's been able to gimme perspective of it.
[00:55:14] John Coe - host: And I could obviously met him back in 19 90, 91. Mm-hmm. So long, long time ago. Yeah. So I followed the firm. It's a fascinating company because they, they're in every sector and they focus on this region only. Yes. Which, you know, I don't know of anybody of that scale. It's done that much of all different product types in this region.
[00:55:35] John Coe - host: I think they are unique in that regard. So undoubtedly
[00:55:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: a, an absolute best in class shop and for me, a best in class opportunity. And I would tell you that every single person who I worked with at that time, many, many, many of whom have left and gone on, would all say the same thing. That it was a best in class group and an unbelievable experience.
[00:56:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Everyone I worked with that I can think of now, and I'm friends with many, many folks who are fellow alums, I think we share. That true sense of gratefulness of the opportunity,
[00:56:13] John Coe - host: really. So I'm
[00:56:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: very grateful
[00:56:16] John Coe - host: for that. So for listeners, I want to just share that my most recent interview with Evan Reagan Levine talks about the interplay of the mentors of him within the firm and how they made decisions at the, at the senior management level.
[00:56:30] John Coe - host: 'cause he's been there now recently, as well as seeing it before when he was an analyst. Yep. Talking about he was probably wasn't even there when you
[00:56:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: started. Oh, we overlapped. Yes. We were friends. Oh, Evan was there. Okay. Evan was, Evan came, I think he probably came after I had started. So I, my hunch is he's, he came somewhere in 12 or 13, is my hunch.
[00:56:50] John Coe - host: Right. But he, he was able early in his career to be able to listen to Oh yeah. You know, Mike Glosser and Rob Stewart and Ben Jacobs, all the debating transactions. Right. And making decisions. And he said they fought literally Yes.
[00:57:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Oh yes. Out loud. I remember some of those investment committee meetings. It was, yeah.
[00:57:09] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Nobody held back. Nobody held back. Right. There was, there's not a, it's not a shy room at all. Intimidating room, let me tell you. 'cause you bring something to the, for you put it out there on the table and you know, you could get run over. But they're gonna debate it hotly and they do not all see, I mean, at the time I was there, they do not all see things from the same perspective.
[00:57:32] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it was not, it was not a necessarily a, you know, we, we come to consensus in the first minute. Nobody was a wallflower.
[00:57:40] John Coe - host: But they did have the, the rule, which was interesting is that one person could kill a deal if they really wanted it felt strongly about it. Yes. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah. So you probably learned some lessons there, I'm guessing.
[00:57:53] John Coe - host: Tremendous lessons.
[00:57:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, and I think in terms of how you, how you look at real estate and how you look at individual deals, you know, inevitably there's always going to be something that is screwed up, something that doesn't work, some problem that comes along. And so you are a mechanic constantly. You are always going in and trying your best to fix problems that exist and to mitigate risk.
[00:58:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, you know, real estate and development in particular is inherently risky. I'm sure this theme. Exists through your a hundred plus podcasts or almost 200 or whatever your number, right? I mean, it, it is a risky industry. And what are we trying to do? We're trying where we can to both acknowledge the risk and mitigate it as best we can.
[00:58:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You can't remove it, but you have to mitigate it. And so there are always trying to, at JBG, mitigate risk. And the other thing I would say at JBG that I saw consistently was a desire to keep optionality. That idea of we want options, we want time, we want options, we want to be nimble, and we want to be able to make moves depending on how the situation evolves.
[00:59:17] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so everything, they would, they would fight for it. They would pay for it. And the optionality is critically important so that you can, you know, avoid being locked, locked up in a situation if, if the tide turns.
[00:59:31] John Coe - host: Yeah,
[00:59:31] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: those were, those were some of the,
[00:59:32] John Coe - host: one of my conceptualists, one of my podcast guests, herb Miller,
[00:59:36] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: yeah.
[00:59:37] John Coe - host: Said that, you know, at times I thought I was a masochist in this business because it was just you, you just didn't know what was, what was gonna happen. Yeah. And he took tremendous risk, probably as much as anybody in the city's history, in some of the things he did in the city. You know, his legacy is pretty amazing.
[00:59:58] John Coe - host: And he said, you know, you, you, you take, you, you think you're climbing up a, a small staircase, but you're climbing the Washington Monument basically to get something done. Sometimes you think people are taking those risks today, maybe not in, in real estate development, but maybe in, you know, in the tech side.
[01:00:16] John Coe - host: Yeah. I look at that, and that's even in, in some ways much higher risk. 'cause you can't justify a story that has no history, right. In real estate, at least you understand location. Yeah. Here you don't have a location, you just have an idea that you're building around that's no, no physical location. Right.
[01:00:36] John Coe - host: So to me that's even a higher risk rewards and you get an entirely new category. Yeah. You get paid for it, of course if you're successful, but if you don't, 99% of the time, well, maybe not 99, but 95, or you don't, you don't make it and talk about risk and talk about low percentage chance of being successful.
[01:00:56] John Coe - host: Yeah. I mean, real estate, I, I look at it as a, you've got an, you know, maybe a 20% chance to be, to hit a home run maybe 20, 30% and in, in development. In, in real in there, you're, if you're, you're best five. Mm-hmm. Then it to be a, you know, a unicorn. You can also hit a single
[01:01:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: in real estate and yes, you can stay alive.
[01:01:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That's right. That's okay.
[01:01:23] John Coe - host: But, you know, not every deal is a home. You're not gonna build, you know, the, the wharf for every project. Right. But
[01:01:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Absolutely. But a tech, and, but to compare it, a tech startup hitting a single, I don't know how sustainable that is. I, I don't know if the funding stays around. I mean, this could go in a whole other direction.
[01:01:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Of course it could. Yes.
[01:01:43] John Coe - host: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a different industry. Exactly. Very interesting. So let's, let's go back to JBG and your next step after JBG. Yeah. So, you know, and
[01:01:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: why Yeah. It's, it's something I thought about many, many a time. I was having a, a very fulfilling experience, and this again was shortly before, I mean, the clamor was just starting.
[01:02:06] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Something might be on the horizon with respect to going public, but it was still a little bit early. And I had a friendship with Martin Ditto, who had a company, ditto residential, that was doing. Very design forward, exciting work largely in the for sale space. He had sort of started with a background at PTO and Zam, you know, with single family homes and was flipping houses and, and had a real beautiful design aesthetic and got some good media and some attention, and was doing some interesting work.
[01:02:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And our conversations centered around whether you could scale a higher design concept and potentially get into the for rent multifamily space rather than just, you know, for sale town homes and condos and try to put together a stable, you know, base of properties that we could hold over time. And so that idea of scaling a company where there was already.
[01:03:05] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Something in the air about it was for me, John, about as close to a startup as I wanted to come. So it wasn't the very first, I always say it wasn't the first deal being done on a, you know, on a laptop at a Starbucks and trying to figure it out. It was, there's something here he's done some of the, the groundwork, how do I juice it?
[01:03:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, and, and bring, you know, bring discipline and help us scale. And he
[01:03:30] John Coe - host: already closed several deals at that point.
[01:03:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. He had a, he had a pipeline Right. That I was excited by of getting into a bigger space. Right. And so the conversations were around, you know, you be on the design and the, the acquisition space and I'll be on the operations space.
[01:03:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And so that was kind of the concept. So I went over there as, as chief operating officer. And so it was essentially taking the big, the big experiences of, of the zoning office and, and JBG and going to a smaller pond as a bigger fish and, and, and spreading my, spreading my wings a bit. And so that's what attracted me and I did it with.
[01:04:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, with some level of reservation, but, but also excitement over the possibilities. Mm-hmm. And really kind of trying to harness and take charge of, of that next step in my career. And so that's what, what led me to make the jump over there, which is I think around the end of 14. And it was challenging.
[01:04:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was challenging. I mean, I think, you know what, I, I learned a lot of lessons over there, but you know, when you don't have systems in place and you're trying to put systems in place, it's quite different. And alignment among partners is critically important. I know, you know, I listened to your, your interview with, with Toby Millman and, and I think, you know, he had some similar experiences to me over there.
[01:04:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: 'cause I think he, was he
[01:04:53] John Coe - host: your
[01:04:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: successor? He came in, yes. So after I left, Martin hired him and we had about a similar mm-hmm. Timeframe. We were both there a little less than two years, a year and a half, something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think we both appreciated the experience, but ultimately couldn't
[01:05:11] John Coe - host: maybe find, you know, exact alignment.
[01:05:13] John Coe - host: So I, I was brought over by, I can't remember, we, Martin and I met at I think EOI function and I went to his office and I sat with him and I worked with John Conley who was there at the time. Yes. I think he was kind of the C-O-O-C-F-O or in essence the finance guy for them. Yes. Finance and acquisitions.
[01:05:31] John Coe - host: I, John, I hired John. John came when I was there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I worked with John on several deals together and we. Unfortunately it didn't close anything, but we looked at a lot of opportunities. It was more acquisitions at the time as opposed to the development deals. 'cause he was, you know, more focused on buying profit front end Right.
[01:05:50] John Coe - host: At that point. Mm-hmm. And now he's doing quite well in industrial. Industrial is interesting. I keep an eye on him. He's
[01:05:57] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: a good guy.
[01:05:57] John Coe - host: Yes. Yeah. So you were there for how long? Two years you said? So I was
[01:06:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: there a little less than two years. I think it was, it was 15 maybe. It was, yeah. All of, all of 15 and, and maybe most of 16.
[01:06:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, and we were still trying to figure it out and I wasn't sure where it would go. But I think you, you know, I'm sure you've had this experience where you're not sure you're in or out or what's gonna happen. Yep. And then sometimes things come around and so without putting my shingle out there, you know, Mid-City reached out to me.
[01:06:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I had met a few members of that team and they called with an opportunity and I was receptive. Mm-hmm.
[01:06:36] John Coe - host: You know,
[01:06:36] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: just, it was a time where I was like, Hmm, well maybe this is a better, better platform for me. And Mid-City was. Really the start of what is now a, a kind of core component of what I understand and enjoy, which is working in a family owned company.
[01:06:52] John Coe - host: Right.
[01:06:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that's really the space I've been in now for, for almost 10 years at Mid-City and now at Horning. And quite different, you know, quite, quite different. Mid-City was, you know, at the time 50-year-old company had a tremendous portfolio properties. I think I had some level of being, you know, quote unquote romanced by the real estate that their holdings are, are incredible in, in and around the district and Shaw and Northeast.
[01:07:17] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And they just have acres and acres of land, the kind of size of portfolio that you, that you couldn't AMAs today. And Gene Ford Senior had put together a great group of properties and the team in place at the time was looking for somebody who could entitle, design and oversee construction of a 4 million square foot pipeline.
[01:07:38] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so is it all residential? We would be, yeah, it would be all residential that we'd be working in, in various neighborhoods. And so I dug in, built a team, hired some folks, and got to work on great projects. I think, you know. Ultimately, a few things stymied us. One being the, unfortunately the, the environment around entitlements in the District of Columbia, which was a, a very tough time between, you know, 16 and 22 in terms of these appeals and the tenants, tenant advocates who were really aggressive in the tactics that they used made it really challenging for us.
[01:08:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Topo was a big lever. Yeah. What we were dealing with was more on the side of, for example, at Brooklyn Manor, which was a large project I worked on for a long time, trying to build. New housing for existing residents and following all of the best practices around building first, not displacing anyone, even temporarily focused on, you know, low income, affordable housing redevelopment.
[01:08:49] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And, you know, the advocates have a track record of coming into certain communities and essentially sparking and, and, and leveraging fear and concern that long-term residents have around displacement and filling the air with, you know, I hate to say it, but just lies. And so we had zoning requirements that said we gotta build first.
[01:09:12] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: No one's gonna be displaced. I mean, as clear as day on paper, every intention of just building and all of that got stymied at that particular project. And the question is, who loses there? And it's the existing residents. Mm-hmm. So you have residents today living in 90-year-old walk up buildings, brick boxes with, you know, well beyond their useful life.
[01:09:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And we had plans to build brand new housing on, on vacant land, on dirt. And that never happened. And it's just, it's a shame. It's a real
[01:09:43] John Coe - host: shame. You were inside the government. So you saw it from that side. I did. But what you're saying is that these were advocates. Yes. And the question is, what's the incentive for these advocates to do this?
[01:09:54] John Coe - host: Is, you know, where, where does that come from?
[01:09:57] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, I mean, a, a lot of them are, you know, sort of social justice warriors and they're folks who frankly, like some of the, the ultra progressives who in certain conversations made very clear that they don't fundamentally believe in the concept of private ownership of land.
[01:10:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I mean, were that fundamentally, so basically they're, they were more or less socialists is what you're saying? Yes. Oh, for sure. For sure. And do not believe in the idea that we would be landlords this co concept of, so profit doesn't mean profit doesn't work. And, and, and change must mean that you are going to take advantage of folks.
[01:10:41] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, that's the, that's one of the big things that I've come to recognize in being in real estate all these years is that when I walk in a room or my colleagues walk in a room, there's years of perspective that is there before I even sit down in the chair. Right? And some of it may be fair based on some bad actors, but a lot of it presupposes a negative and, you know, and negative intention or, or bad character or lack of integrity before I'm even in the room.
[01:11:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that is not how I operate. And it's quite frustrating because you're always. You're always having to disprove and prove yourself. Yeah. And prove yourself in a way where, you know, it's like the, the classic, like why do, why do beat your wife? And it's like, well, wait a minute, it's mm-hmm. Obviously that's not who I am, but that is very, very tough.
[01:11:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And again, I know there's not a lot of sympathy for, for the developer, but, you know, when I go into community meetings or meet with folks, what I often say is, you live in a house, you live in an apartment, you live somewhere, a developer built that. You know, you go to an, you go to an office, a developer built that.
[01:11:50] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You go to your library, you go somewhere like it. The built environment is not in and of itself an evil proposition, you know? And so sure there are going to be actors, bad actors, good actors, but, but you're so tarred and feathered in so many situations, and that's really,
[01:12:09] John Coe - host: really challenging. Well, I don't want to get into it in too deeply, but what just happened this week in downtown Washington mm-hmm.
[01:12:17] John Coe - host: With what the President of the United States has done Yeah. Is a bit of an overreaction in my opinion. I don't want to get into that in too much depth, but the, the mindset that you were just talking about, unfortunately swells up and creates this perception Yes. Of, you know, corruption and the, the behavior there.
[01:12:39] John Coe - host: And it's unfortunate only a few actors are creating this mess. Yeah. Usually. But
[01:12:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: it, it, it, it feeds into something where if you are a developer, if you are a landlord, if you are collecting rent like that, there's some Grady in tension. And, and so, you know, I really focus on, in community meetings, for example, how can I educate folks on the basics of how a real estate transaction might come together?
[01:13:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So if I'm put proposing a new project, for example, you know, I want to make clear, you know, that, that I have to ensure that this project is investible and financeable and that these are other significant players, critical players, but for whom the project will not happen. Mm-hmm. And so if you like anything on paper about this project, or there's things you like, things you don't, it can't happen unless I can entice someone to loan me proceeds.
[01:13:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. And, and, and, and invest as an equity investor in that project. And they see it all as this, this rich developer coming in who's gonna do it all and make endless amounts of profit. And so explaining and educating folks on, on a business that they might not understand, I think is helpful If you could simplify it enough to, to make clear that, you know, there are realities that we all have to meet in order to
[01:14:03] John Coe - host: be able to accomplish
[01:14:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: a project.
[01:14:04] John Coe - host: I'd like to cite two podcast interviews discussing this issue. First was with Vicki Davis. Mm-hmm. How she was able to get the approval for the Walter Reed project and the public meetings that she held to do that incredible process. And she was able to convince people that this was good for them in the long run.
[01:14:30] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. And it was a broad sector of folks mm-hmm. That she was pitching to. The other one was actually was Brian Folger and Folger Pratt and then John Peterson mm-hmm. At the Peterson Company, who formed a joint venture, well actually his father Mill Peterson formed a joint venture to redevelop downtown Silver Spring.
[01:14:50] John Coe - host: Say Silver Spring. Sure. After the Canadians came in and were gonna build a big mall there. Mm-hmm. And not listening to the community. Mm-hmm. And was, you know, it was Doug Duncan, the, the county executive at the time stepped in and said, we gotta find some, some common ground here to make this work. And so what Brian and John said that they listened to the community, what do you want?
[01:15:14] John Coe - host: Yes. What's important here? Yes. So, to me, if you're doing a major mixed use development of that scale, unless you know exactly what the community wants, you know, you're not gonna be able to get off off the ground with anything really.
[01:15:29] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I agree with you. I also think I, I agree entirely with what you're saying.
[01:15:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It's also interesting to, and when you're trying to reach some common ground and some understanding. In my experiences when I've worked with communities that have some level of pragmatism. So for example, when I was working on for Totten Square at JBG, right? Right. I went into community meetings and I remember the very first community meeting I'm up there and there had to be over 400 people standing room only.
[01:15:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And some were steaming mad over a Walmart coming in and just the worst sense of what it was gonna be. And that forum was quite challenging. But as we dug in and I went to just many, many different community meetings, it was the Civic Association, the lamont Rig Civic Association in that neighborhood that.
[01:16:20] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Said, okay, if this is happening, because that was not a PUD, that was what's called a large track review. Mm-hmm. Which is more of an administrative process for a very large project, but it didn't require, it was essentially by, right. It didn't require a new zoning approval. They said, we want to figure out how to get enough of what is important to us embedded in this project.
[01:16:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And if they, if the fundamentals where Walmart was coming, what was the program? How much grocer was gonna be there that would, that would serve that community? What was the frontage gonna look like? What ancillary retail were we gonna bring in? How would the entrances work? How would the parking work? How would this impact the community and how people walk around the community?
[01:17:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: What charitable causes would the Walmart support? All the things around it. So if you are going to be a new neighbor of ours mm-hmm. And you want to be welcomed into this community, what does that look like? So for example, we carved out a hard corner that Walmart wanted and said, no, no, no, that's a coffee shop corner.
[01:17:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And we worked our butts off to get a coffee shop for that corner. 'cause that community said if this is gonna be integrated mm-hmm. People want to get their groceries. Mm-hmm. They wanna be able to come out, they want a meeting place. So things like that where it wasn't just, we're gonna go scorched earth and you can't have anything, you can never have that Walmart there, but it's how can we take this fact of what's coming and make it fit who we are.
[01:17:41] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm.
[01:17:42] John Coe - host: And
[01:17:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: that was a, that was a really
[01:17:44] John Coe - host: good collaborative process for all those young listeners out there who happen to be members of the Urban Land Institute. There is a program called Urban Plan that really does what Jamie just said. So if you've done this, and I don't know if you've done this, Jamie.
[01:18:03] John Coe - host: I have, yes. Urban Plan has these questions and it addresses that directly. Absolutely. So I think of Urban Plan and, and for those of the listening that have done it, know what I'm gonna talk about here, but there's the big choice and you're, and you're designing your site plan for this is whether you're gonna do what they call the Q Mart in the, in that, whether you're gonna do that.
[01:18:26] John Coe - host: So to me, the Q Mart decision is directly analogous to what we were just talking about.
[01:18:32] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Absolutely. And where do you, and then the homeless shelter and the QI remember all the different aspects of those case studies. Right. It's a real life situation. It really is. It's, it's, it's terrific. It's so great.
[01:18:43] John Coe - host: Yeah. So Mid City, talk a little bit more about that experience and then what evolved from there.
[01:18:51] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Sure. So again, working on entitlements and design, I did end up building a great project, which we called Big Sky Flats, which is on Rhode Island Avenue and Montana Avenue. It's an apartment building there across the street from Brooklyn Manor.
[01:19:06] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That was a real, a real accomplishment given that a lot of it was overseen in, in terms of design, entitlement and ultimately construction during COVID, early COVID. So we broke ground in December of 2020, which was really fascinating. We acquired the site in fall, uh, or, or mid 2018 and delivered the building in mid 22.
[01:19:32] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I'm telling you, four years from buying a piece of dirt. That had an existing church, a church was selling it, and we bought the existing church in a former bank building to delivering a new multifamily building in four years in DC I'll take that all day long. I, I was, that was, that was pretty great for me to go through that whole steps and in the middle of a pandemic.
[01:19:51] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So is
[01:19:51] John Coe - host: this walking distance from the Brookland metro?
[01:19:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It's, it's, no, it's, it's actually a little less than a mile from the Rhode Island Avenue Metro. Oh, Rhode Island. So you go up Rhode Island Avenue further east, and it's around 13th and Rhode Island Northeast. Got it. And so a church that we knew reached out and said they wanted to relocate, and we actually helped them with a broker to relocate and help find them a new home.
[01:20:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And ultimately they had rented back from us, closed on the building, hired a a team, all the steps, jumped in, figured out what we wanted to design and, and construct, went out and did a raise, largely a friends and family raise on the equity side. It was also in an opportunity zone. So we put together the documentation around that and got.
[01:20:36] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Got favorable financing terms and signed A GMP and broke ground in December of 20, but the supply chain issues got much worse in 21. And so our general contractor really struggled on the lumber side in 2021 for our wood frame building, 108 unit building. But they were fantastic. We worked with Olive Jennings.
[01:20:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes, extremely reputable, solid company who I work with again and again, and we saw our way through it and delivered a building. I was really am really proud of. But man, going through that in the pandemic and all the things that come along that you never thought you'd have to face from, you know, people getting sick on the job to mass protocols, to obviously supply, to, you know, changing, you know, financing terms.
[01:21:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It was, it was just constant up and downs. So you were already taking an environment that is rife with risk as we were discussing. Mm-hmm. And you're introducing all these new variables that people have never seen their work through.
[01:21:38] John Coe - host: Did you, did you stay long enough to see the lease up of the project
[01:21:41] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: or not?
[01:21:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I left largely, I mean, I I, it, it's, I left in the, in early 2023 and we were, you know, maybe half leased up at the time. It was a small building, but the lease up was challenging given the location. I think one of the, you know, the challenges is it was part of a first phase of a larger redevelopment of Brooklyn Manor, which unfortunately at this moment in time has been, has been stalled as we discussed.
[01:22:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it would, it, it, you know, made it, made it tougher, more, more
[01:22:12] John Coe - host: challenging for us. But when you were describing Gene Ford and his background in the city, I think of two other families. One is one you're now working for. Yes. Horing Brothers. Yes. And the other being Chris Smith. Yes. And the Smith family.
[01:22:26] John Coe - host: Absolutely. Those three companies pioneered to some extent in residential development. Where no one else would. I don't believe in this, in this city's history. I agree with you.
[01:22:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think all three, the commonality of being these very large, you know, figures who were smart, assertive individuals and they understood hud, they understood affordable housing.
[01:22:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. They were willing to work in neighborhoods that many others wouldn't. In particular, in and around the time of the riots where a lot of people fled. Gene Ford Senior was called up by folks right after the riots and basically handed, you know, land on seventh Street that had been completely burned out, burned down and said, you know, tax credit, whatever you gotta do, just do something here to get some buildings built in areas nobody wanted to be in.
[01:23:20] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Joe Horning another example. The most prolific developer in the 1980s in the District of Columbia. Not because he built 30,000 units, but because he built 3000 units because nobody built residential in the eighties. There was such a drought of new units. Interesting. At that time, it's really interesting, the history of construction in the district, and Joe kept going, Joe is a homegrown.
[01:23:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: DC through and through individual whose passion for this city and for affordable housing and neighborhoods many he didn't go to was constant through his life in addition to being incredibly philanthropic. So it is interesting. There's certainly definitely commonalities and I didn't know at the time I was at Mid-City that so much of the, the training I got there would be so directly applicable to this Sure.
[01:24:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Unique experience. Yeah. Where I am now is kind of a culmination of a lot of different aspects of my background.
[01:24:14] John Coe - host: And for listeners, please listen to my interview with Chris Smith as well. Yes. As well, which talks about his family's history in the city, which is amazing as well. More on the southeast and, and Anacostia area probably mm-hmm.
[01:24:29] John Coe - host: Than
[01:24:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: the
[01:24:30] John Coe - host: other two. Yeah.
[01:24:31] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. Although Mid-City has a few holdings over there and we certainly have a number of communities over there that we own and manage, but yes. Mm-hmm. WC Smith went, went
[01:24:40] John Coe - host: hard in that neighborhood. So, before we move on to where you are now, is there anything else you wanna share about Mid-City?
[01:24:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: No, I mean, I think the, the, you know, ultimately I think, you know, family companies, I learned a lot from being at a family company there and understanding, you know, that dynamics do shift and that, um mm-hmm. Multi-generational companies. Yes. Um, go through various, you know, challenges mm-hmm. In terms of figuring out, you know, what they need and what different generations need and how to deal with, you know, when you have a very strong.
[01:25:13] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Founder who is very passionate about an industry, that passion isn't necessarily shared by the next generation or members of the next generation. So what does that look like? And when there are more mouths to feed and more folks in future generations, how does that shake out? And so I worked with a business coach for a number of years who specializes in family business consultation.
[01:25:38] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And I found that to be extremely helpful. Most of her work is advising families in family businesses, not non-family member executives. But I was quite fortunate to work with her because I was really looking for an understanding of what goes on behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. And what are the challenges so that I could empathize and understand better and position myself accordingly to be a support.
[01:26:05] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so what I learned through that process and continue to learn is that, you know, ultimately I'm a fiduciary working on behalf of a family to accomplish their aims as a business and as a family. And so I try to ask a lot of questions and have, at the time I've been at, you know, since I've been at Horning about what the aims are and ensuring that we have alignment horning family.
[01:26:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Much like their, their dad, Joe, incredibly philanthropic, incredibly devoted to affordable housing and to supporting communities, particularly disadvantaged communities, communities of color. And so that spoke to me. That was certainly an attractive aspect of coming over here and I wanna make sure that we have a sustainable, thriving business in that.
[01:26:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so I'm trying to strike that right balance. And so I ask a lot of questions, Jim.
[01:26:57] John Coe - host: Yeah. So hiring this coach, was that stimulated by activities that were going on at at MidCity at the time when you did that? Or was that just kind of your own intellectual curiosity about what challenges I have ahead here with this?
[01:27:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It started more as in exercise in trying to develop my leadership skills. Mm-hmm. Running the development department at Mid-City. Got it. And ultimately, in addition to just straight up executive coaching is fantastic for our leadership development. I ended up particularly fortunate to, you know, by hiring somebody with that bent and background, which was a good decision on my part.
[01:27:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I met with folks who, who were more straight up business coaches and mm-hmm Ultimately kind of had a sense that there'd be another gear, I might get outta that and
[01:27:53] John Coe - host: Right was right. So for listeners, I'm gonna, this is another subject that I've done past interviews on Toby and Tom Bto went through this process of family transition.
[01:28:07] John Coe - host: The Peterson family went through this transition in their conversation, and then the Folger Pratt folks as well. So all have gone through both educational as well as consulting transitions and the, and both are all three are all still family run companies. So it's an interesting legacy issue Yes. To deal with for sure.
[01:28:30] John Coe - host: For sure. Yeah. So you then pivoted and came over to. Horning Brothers. Yes. Horning. That's a horning now, not just the brothers. Just horning. Horning, okay.
[01:28:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, they, uh, you know, as you, as you know, 'cause I know you interviewed David Rudberg. David had been here for many years versus CFO and then ultimately as, as president and CEO.
[01:28:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And he had decided after 20 years in Horning that he wanted to step down and the family was searching for their next leader. And I was approached about the opportunity and began a discussion and really fruitful discussion. And I really genuinely got to know the family through the interview process and saw, as I said, a big word that I'm quite fond of is alignment.
[01:29:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I saw a lot of alignment between myself and, and this opportunity and the Horning family and Horning as a company. And so I started here about two and a half years ago, early 2023, and have been, you know, working since then to. Make the company a, a, a reflection of, of who we are now and, and responsive to the environment that we're in.
[01:29:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It's quite a different time. Horning is a almost 70-year-old company. I mentioned that, you know, Joe Horning was a, an incredible, you know, aggressive and, and, and accomplished developer. He had worked for some years with his brother Larry, and then continued on. And I think, you know, with Joe at the helm, the first iteration of the company was one that was more of a singular version of, of, of him and, and his desire to grow and do projects.
[01:30:11] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think he had a, you know, was creative, had a big appetite, and got a lot done. And I think that second iteration with David at the helm, you know, he learned a lot from Joe. He had a, a great connection to the start of the firm and he was one who introduced more structure and more process. Mm-hmm. And now in this third iteration, I'm trying to further bring us into being a future oriented company.
[01:30:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So that means right sizing the team, making sure we have really top-notch talent here. That we have a forward-looking perspective, that we're not afraid to question the thesis, ask difficult questions. You know, it's also a different time for real estate. So the size of checks are a lot bigger. The, the risk is different.
[01:30:55] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: DC as I, as you well know, and I'm sure as you've spoken in prior podcasts, you know, it's much more institutional right now in our region. And so. Staying true to our roots as a family owned company, but at the same time being operating within a, with a mindset that is 2025 and beyond mindset. Mm-hmm. That understands the intricacies that are, you know, required to get deals done is just different than Joe's time.
[01:31:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It's just a different platform or, or different environment I should say. And so our platform needs to be different to respond to that.
[01:31:29] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. So without your experience at Mid-City, you wouldn't be here probably. That's right.
[01:31:36] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. I wonder without any of those experiences, you know, you can't always foreshadow these things.
[01:31:42] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. But I truly believe that this is a culmination of a lot of those places I've been at. There's not one I would want to say that, right. But I mean, the family office, but the family office for sure. But man, the, the leadership from the zoning office, for example, right? I run a team now of 175 folks. We are vertically integrated, we do our own management.
[01:32:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So much of learning, you know, the EQ side came from that experience for me initially, so Interesting. It's very, very interesting. But certainly Mid-City,
[01:32:10] John Coe - host: hugely important. Yeah. So Horing is, is known for its diverse portfolio, including affordable, conventional, and mixed income housing, as well as retail and mixed use projects.
[01:32:22] John Coe - host: Looking ahead, what areas of development is horning focused on, particularly regarding its projects in the pipeline, like 9 0 1 Monroe? Ravenna,
[01:32:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: also known as Ravenna. Same thing. Yes. 9 0 1 Monroe is Ravenna and Northgate process. Sure. So those are two good legacy projects that are ground up opportunities.
[01:32:43] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So 9 0 1 Monroe, also known as Ravenna, is one that we've owned with Bowman Kedi for a number of years. It's, it was that classic story of ter terrible level of appeals that went on and on and on, and we're back at it. Now here we are sitting here waiting for hopefully proposed and then final action approving a new PUD for that site, you know, and then hopefully getting to construction there, which will be a wonderful milestone.
[01:33:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: What's the plan? That site which sits across in the Brooklyn Metro will be about a 230 unit apartment building. Mm-hmm. Um, and if you know when it is completed, John, it will have taken approximately 25 years Wow. To complete. We can do a case study on that, if you like, in a follow up conversation that's like Skyland with Gary Rappaport and Chris Smith Reservoir District.
[01:33:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. I mean, there's, sadly there are a number of those sites, but this is probably the smallest project to have gone through that level of pain. I mean, think about it, we're not talking Reservoir District. Right. The town homes, the medical office, the, the apartments. Well, that's the historic piece
[01:33:52] John Coe - host: and
[01:33:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: all that.
[01:33:53] John Coe - host: Yeah.
[01:33:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But, but here, 25 years. Yeah. For one apartment building across from Metro on a vacant piece of ground. It's just, it's
[01:34:02] John Coe - host: Well, when you get it built, yes, I'm sure you will. I will do a case study. Absolutely. Absolutely. Which you'll leave,
[01:34:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: right? Right. I'm sure. So that, that's one that's exciting. And then Joe purchased many years ago, a, a piece of ground called Northgate Crossing up in Frederick.
[01:34:18] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And we were paused for a number of years as they were building the, the interchange off the highway off Route 15. Mm-hmm. And so now those off ramps are all constructed and so we're looking at some partnerships to try to build retail there and eventually multifamily. So again, those are legacy projects that will, will happen.
[01:34:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But in terms of how I think about the future, I have to tell you at this moment in time, and we can talk about our recent acquisition. You know, the reality is that it is. More palatable because of the opportunity to buy right now at below replacement costs. Mm. To buy existing properties rather than build ground up, ground up is inherently risky.
[01:35:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, despite the need for more housing and the, the lack of supply communities and the regulatory environment continue to make it just as difficult in our region to build new. And so do I want to do five more 9 0 1 monroes and fight 25 years on a vacant piece of ground? Mm-hmm. Or do I want to find creative ways to acquire new assets and maybe lock in affordability at an existing building, or figure out a middle market naturally occurring affordable housing product that by acquiring or doing slight value add, we can still keep affordable to a middle market.
[01:35:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. You know, renter versus, um, going to, you know, straight up Class A. But, you know, I would love to build, I mean, that's in my bones as you know, I got into this industry as we started here today to build new and as a developer. But it's really, really a tough environment and I think that, that, unfortunately what we'll find from this period of time is that sure buildings, trade hands and different owners come in, but if you're not ultimately increasing the supply and we're gonna continue to see a slowdown, it's going to make ultimately all the existing buildings more expensive.
[01:36:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It just is, it's basic supply and demand as I see it, so,
[01:36:23] John Coe - host: well, there's the conversion opportunities too, but yeah,
[01:36:26] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: those are hard. Those are quite difficult. That is, that is not on my bucket list.
[01:36:31] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. I'll
[01:36:31] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: be honest with you, you know, if one comes around and it makes sense, that's fine, but I'm just not as hot on it as some others may be.
[01:36:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. It's not, uh, you know, it's just, it's just like, pick, pick your challenge, which mean do you wanna go to? And, and I'll be honest with you, I haven't probably put enough time into it because it doesn't, it doesn't appeal to me as much. I think I, I, I struggle a little bit fundamentally with the idea still that where some of these conversions are, first of all, you know, makes such a difference.
[01:37:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Midblock on a corner lot, how it works, you know, the depth of the building, you know, what's going on there, all that. It's so site dependent. But in some of these particular submarkets, I do wonder if the, if the supposition is that you're gonna get top of market rents, that you're gonna get, you know, exceed $5 a foot, you know, rents.
[01:37:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But these are neighborhoods that are still lacking in certain amenities, still wanna have grocery stores. They're still sort of office canyons largely, and people don't want to go back to work there. Mm-hmm. I still scratch my head a little bit at, at whether somebody's gonna want to desperately live there at a point where it's gonna be ultra luxury and frankly, ultra luxury is not the lane we even plan.
[01:37:43] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: No, that's not your,
[01:37:44] John Coe - host: your
[01:37:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: environment. So I haven't seen how a conversion works for
[01:37:47] John Coe - host: us. I could see it in, you know, I mean, Northern Virginia. Suburban office buildings. Yeah, you can. Yes. Suburban
[01:37:56] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: office. I get it. Pencil the numbers. Mm-hmm. There, I think today, and if, and if it fits into neighborhoods that work as an outgrowth of existing residential neighborhoods, then I get that or that near retail.
[01:38:06] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I get that. And, and, and I see it in certain parts of downtown DC where people want to be close to, you know, the monuments and other areas. You know, any that outgrowth near mm-hmm. You know, the wharf and going up into some of those areas. I, I get it. But again, it's so site specific.
[01:38:21] John Coe - host: Arlington and Alexandria has had some successful projects as well.
[01:38:24] John Coe - host: Yeah. Yes they have. So, you know, if you're close to transportation and all that, you can make it work. Yeah. A lot of office buildings just are vacant and they're sitting there and they're not getting, they're not moving. So it's gonna discount to the point where when the loan's coming due. That's where I think a lot of opportunity's gonna continue to go forward.
[01:38:44] John Coe - host: I don't see it as much in Montgomery County. Yeah, I don't either. And I don't know about the district. It's extraordinary opportunities,
[01:38:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: sadly. It's
[01:38:54] John Coe - host: like the,
[01:38:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: the, the, the basis needs to be low enough. And so it's like, you know, making the deal work is premised on you being that, you know, hard up and it be, it being that bad.
[01:39:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And, and when you sit there and a building is half occupied, it's like, it's bad, but it doesn't, it isn't bad enough. So you're kind of caught a little bit, I
[01:39:16] John Coe - host: think a lot of office developers. Yeah. Well, we're now seeing office buildings being acquired, JBGs now buying office buildings. So because of the discounts stuff, right?
[01:39:26] John Coe - host: It's interesting. Exactly. Oh no, there's certainly discounts for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So Joe Horning mentioned that under Chairman mentioned that under prior, previous leadership, that the company fulfilled its mission to develop and manage high quality communities and be engaged members of the community as the new CEO.
[01:39:42] John Coe - host: What, what is your vision for the future of Horing Brothers and how do you plan to continue this mission? Sure. So I
[01:39:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: work with, with Joseph, Joe, Joe Horning's son, who is our chairman. And we talk often about this, this idea of, you know. Threading the mission of what his, you know, dad started and the, the fundamental sort of DNA of this company and ensuring that it, it, it lives and thrives within me and within all the members of our team.
[01:40:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so I think it goes back to a dedication to mixed income housing. You know, we are very concentrated in this region, certainly in the DMV is where we operate, but within the region we have urban suburban, we have high-rise, we have mid-rise, we have garden style walkups, we have, we have capital A, affordable properties.
[01:40:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: We have naturally occurring affordable, and we have some, you know, more limited kind of Class a, class B apartments as well. And so, you know, I see us continuing with long-term confidence in this region. The family has expressed an interest in serving Joe's legacy by continuing to look for the right types of opportunities that need a mission, but that also work from our business.
[01:41:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so I view us as essentially a, a mission driven for profit in that regard. I wanna make sure that when we're looking at new opportunities that they feel like a Hoing property. You know, sometimes I'll talk to a broker and, you know, they'll show something and I'll say, that's not our deal. And it's so, I think it's good to understand what you think is not your deal.
[01:41:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And it doesn't mean, you know. More, you know, Godspeed. I, I hope the next one, you know, is for us, and I hope this one goes to somebody it makes sense for, but knowing who you are is, uh, is important. And knowing where you want to spend your time, what you want to chase, what you want to go after, and what your path of growth is.
[01:41:40] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so now I'm looking at our existing portfolio to make sure the thesis of our long-term ownership makes sense for every property we have. I wanna make sure that we are unafraid of asking tough questions about how things are going and what we're doing. I wanna make sure we're investing adequately and putting in, you know, the capital work that's necessary to ensure these communities continue to thrive.
[01:42:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that we are sound landlords. I think that that's very important when assets age, that we have the right capital plans in place. And then as we grow, how can we look at the vehicles that are out there that will support new properties? So we were, you know, talking before we started recording about our new recent acquisition in Hyattsville.
[01:42:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That's a neighborhood that we had not been in. In Prince George's County. We own a few properties there, but we had not gone, you know, long on that. This was a transit oriented property, an existing high rise called Plaza Towers that was built in the 1960s and we were able to put together a really compelling package.
[01:42:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: We worked extensively with Prince George's County. We have worked through their ER process. We have a pilot. We also got some, some funding from the county, and then we approached Amazon in their housing equity fund to essentially. Pitch the idea of locking in long-term affordability there in an area that has a lot of pricing pressures.
[01:43:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. If you look around Hyattsville and in particular by Hyattsville Crossing Metro, there's lots of new multi-family for sale town homes and you can just see visually in the growth over the last, you know, decade that a lot of folks are gonna feel that pressure and potentially be displaced. And the fact that with Amazon's support we can lock in at a 288 unit community affordability essentially caps at 80% of a MI.
[01:43:34] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Those residents who are there, the people fill, the few remaining vacant units are gonna know they can stay in that amenity rich neighborhood for a while.
[01:43:42] John Coe - host: Can you talk about the capital stack there a little bit?
[01:43:44] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. So we have primary debt from Freddie. We came in with Amazon's housing equity fund is essentially operates like secondary debt and it's below market terms mezzanine
[01:43:57] John Coe - host: deal.
[01:43:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yep. So, and in exchange for that below market mezzanine financing, it really limits the amount of equity that is required in the deal substantially. And the trade off is that you put in place 99 year affordability covenant that runs with the property and you run essentially your own. You know, you, you ensure compliance through your own program to meet the affordability covenant.
[01:44:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so the, you know, income restrictions, we manage that program and we're audited and we, you know, submit information regarding our, our commitments to ensuring that the different levels of a MI are represented. And there's details around how many, what percentage of a MI and how many, you know, what unit sizes and whatnot.
[01:44:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And as part of building out that capital stack, we knew that there would be capital work needed at the property. So we ensured that we had a really thoughtful, sensible and holistic view of the needs that the building would have. And Amazon was very attuned to that as well. They want to know that if they're investing in a property that is gonna be not only, well, you know, managed and maintained day to day, but that over time the systems in the building are gonna be, are gonna be top notch.
[01:45:16] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so we have some aggressive capital work we'll be doing over the next year
[01:45:19] John Coe - host: mm-hmm.
[01:45:20] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: In the building. And we'll be managing that building, which we have a fantastic team in place there. And so it's, it's, for me, a really, really emblematic of how we can leverage limited capital dollars that we have at play to increase our, our communities under management, increase the amount of units that we, that we own in a way that makes a mission.
[01:45:46] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So that's kind of emblematic, I think of what I said. Mission driven for
[01:45:50] John Coe - host: profit. Sure. So since you're a JBG alum, did, in addition to talking to Amazon, did you, did you talk to uh, our friend AJ Jackson? Yes. Talked
[01:46:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: to aj. I talked to, to, to Kimberly. Yeah. We've, we've, we've spoken about that, you know, about those kinds of deals extensively.
[01:46:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes. Mm-hmm. And they're, he is somebody I talk to as we look at other deals as well. Yeah. 'cause Leo is Yes. They're eager to get Yes. Money out the door. I know that. I know that. So, yeah. And, and David Rudberg, our former, former CEO here oversaw the housing, Washington Housing Conservancy for a number of years as well.
[01:46:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So we're all You're in that network? We're all in the
[01:46:27] John Coe - host: network,
[01:46:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: yes. Yes.
[01:46:29] John Coe - host: All friends and, and colleagues. Yeah. Well, for listeners, I've interviewed David, I've interviewed aj and I've also interviewed Catherine Ell, who was the founder of the Amazon program as well, and put, she talks in detail on how that was set up and why they did it and all that.
[01:46:45] John Coe - host: And then I'm hoping to plan to speak to Sentil, who's her successor, sometime later this summer, I'm hoping. Terrific. So anyway, so that gives that story, so that's exciting.
[01:46:57] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yes.
[01:46:58] John Coe - host: Great. And so do you have other deals in the, in the hopper that you're looking at that are of that nature?
[01:47:02] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. So,
[01:47:03] John Coe - host: you know,
[01:47:04] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: we do, we have a few other deals now under consideration, and it, and it goes to the same space of.
[01:47:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: How does it meet our mission and how do we look creatively at financing the deal? You know, and I think for us, the next horizon that I'm focused on is can we find programmatic relationship potentially with an equity provider that has similar, again, alignment with us with respect to long-term ownership, some desire to be in the, in the affordability space.
[01:47:35] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so we are strategizing now around what the best way is to go and cultivate those relationships.
[01:47:42] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm.
[01:47:43] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I take your advice offline, John.
[01:47:45] John Coe - host: I I look at the, the multi-family financing arena right now and several things are going on, and it have been going on for a while. I look at the green building mo movement and the, the, you know, the, this wood timber mass, timber mass timber effort in the development side.
[01:48:05] John Coe - host: I also look just recently, in fact this week I read that there's a possibility, at least there's an advocacy going on right now to merge Freddie and Fannie, which is an interesting idea, which I'm, I, I asked myself 'cause I was a financier for 30 some years. Is that a good thing, long term? Mm-hmm. For that to happen?
[01:48:28] John Coe - host: What does that mean to the multifamily bills business? What does that mean for the single family business? Yeah. Um, well there's a lot of considerations there anyway, but I, I'm just. Wondering long term what other innovations are out there that is gonna help this whole challenge that le that Leo Capital is trying to face.
[01:48:49] John Coe - host: And Amazon and some of the, and I read about recently that both Microsoft, well, not just Microsoft, apple and Meta have all gotten into housing, at least in their, near their neighborhoods mm-hmm. Their headquarters, which I think is a good thing. Do you
[01:49:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: think they will follow the, I haven't read enough about this.
[01:49:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: The, the, the model of Amazon's housing equity fund?
[01:49:12] John Coe - host: I don't know. I think primarily it's around their headquarters where they were trying to do development and the communities that they're in that said, if you're gonna develop, you're gonna help us with our, with our housing. Because in Northern California it's, you know, it's how bad it is here in Washington.
[01:49:31] John Coe - host: It's probably twice as bad in there as far as affordability. Sure. Absolutely. That's the worst in the country. Mm-hmm. Maybe New York City, but other than those markets just really, really challenging. Mm-hmm. And they've stepped up to some extent, but nothing like Amazon. Yeah. Amazon is of course, you know, at the forefront of, of all that.
[01:49:51] John Coe - host: So I asked Catherine, when I interviewed her, I said, so why haven't other, your competitors, you know, in the tech space done this? And now they've followed a little, and there you go a little bit. Right, right. But not taking that much of an initiative. Mm-hmm. So I, I champ, I give her a tremendous amount of credit.
[01:50:08] John Coe - host: 'cause it was her six page memo that got that thing going. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And they've just, with her experience at, at Atlanta and then here before that. Yeah. You know, no. And they
[01:50:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: continue to be, they were excellent partner and Santos fantastic. And the team they work with and they, they do a lot of work with HRA who incredibly thoughtful.
[01:50:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it's a, it's a terrific program and I would love to partner with them again. Yeah. I really think you find the right property and the right project
[01:50:37] John Coe - host: and they're a great partner. So, you know, one of your projects was Tivoli Square, which was a mixed use development. Are you looking at any of those kind of situations at all now?
[01:50:49] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, so Tivoli was done, Joe and, and David and the team did that one as a public private partnership with the district government in the early two thousands. And we own and manage that now. And that's where we have, you know, grocery store, right? Office space, right. Ground floor retail. So that was a, a successful project.
[01:51:07] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I think, you know, the way I interpret your question is would, would we submit for RFPs for redevelopments, you know, public private partnerships with the, the district or another jurisdiction? And I think the challenge is that. The amount of time, again, I'm talking, we're talking about ground up development is so hard.
[01:51:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. You know, you add in the public private component. Yeah. And it's very, very difficult. So the projects where I see the mayor and the deputy Mayor's office taking some of the work upfront and doing some of it, going out and doing some of the community work and getting some of the feedback so that they can narrow down the program to a point where they're ready to bring in a partner and move more quickly.
[01:51:52] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. That's attractive to me and I think it's really smart for them to be thinking about how they can minimize that timeframes. They can continue to attract partners who, like we said, in real estate, want to mitigate risk and want to move as quickly as they can. And so whatever they can do by Right.
[01:52:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Wherever they can get map amendments through early in working with the Office of Planning, that's certainly helps. Using DC as an example, I'm also intrigued by WADA's redevelopment and the fact the way they've put out sites and so I'm always watching that. So I would say if, if it was the right site, we, we'd potentially go go for something.
[01:52:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: But there are players who, you know, inevitably if an RFP is coming out, they're on the list. I would not put Horning in that group. I think it has to be a site that makes particular
[01:52:39] John Coe - host: sense. So I look at, you know, Vicki's company, urban Atlantic and Urban's one that goes after a lot. Yeah. They're not, in fact, they're probably smaller than horning is as far as as team and scale.
[01:52:50] John Coe - host: Yeah. Mm-hmm. But they go to companies like Heinz Yeah. Or other large development firms. Right. With a lot big capital base. Mm-hmm. Would that be a strategy you would, would think about doing? You know, I think it's, it's
[01:53:03] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: possible if it, if it met a certain mission for us, again, it's a question of like, you can't play in every space.
[01:53:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Sure. So what space do we want to play in? Yep. I think those guys, as I understand it with their programmatic equity relationships, have deals they need to get done. You know, we have an existing base of properties, so if we were to decide we wanna focus exclusively on just, you know, doing all that we can with our existing portfolio, that would be fine.
[01:53:32] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Like, we don't, we don't have to make deals to survive. I don't know about their structure, so I'm not a pun on that. So you're not an empire builder is, is what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, it, it did it right. Okay. I'm, I'm a fiduciary, I'm a family self. Okay. Alright. I get it. I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, responsive to the needs of the family and trying to be thoughtful and, and curate and grow a company in a, in a way that fits who we are.
[01:54:01] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. So drawing on your extensive experience across DC region, how do you assess the current market conditions for development? You just, you said earlier it was very difficult. Yeah. Where do you see the greatest potential of future growth
[01:54:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: today? You know, I was thinking about this. I mean, certainly today you see, you know, the, the, the, the competitiveness in Northern Virginia for sure.
[01:54:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that's a market that we're looking at as well. But what I would say that I am intrigued by is with all that's going on with the federal government and, you know, the, the efforts to dispose of surplus properties, excuse me. And to really look at what that's gonna mean for downtown dc I am eager to see whether they put together the right offering and can, can really get enough available land together rather than doing each redevelopment as a one-off.
[01:55:01] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: If they can get almost like a campus together. Perhaps the next wharf will come around. It's not gonna be the wharf, but perhaps, you know, you combine some of these buildings, if you looked at some of the maps, and there are some very large sites. So if the federal government in particular and wiping the land is, you know, wiping the sites is, is willing to help and is eager to get that into private redevelopment, I think you'll see one happen.
[01:55:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I don't know that you'll see every single one happen, but I think you'll see one happen and I think that will be exciting. So I'm eager to see.
[01:55:32] John Coe - host: Well, the area that I think of, and I've mentioned this in other podcast interviews, is the area from Independence Avenue South. Yes. Down, you know, even beyond the expressway.
[01:55:44] John Coe - host: Towards the wharf. Mm-hmm. From sixth, southwest to 12th, Southwest. Mm-hmm. Including Lofa Plaza. Yes. That whole area. You've got the infrastructure in place. Mm-hmm. Yep. You and, but you know, you've got an archaic federal structure there that needs to be redeveloped. Yes. And it's probably, it's like a ghost town or whatever.
[01:56:08] John Coe - host: It's multi-billion dollar development. Yes. Potential there. So the question is, how is the federal government gonna work with the DC government and the local development community to make something work? You know, in a way that you know, is analogous to what happened at the wharf.
[01:56:25] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Potentially, you're never gonna get a piece of land like that sitting there between the National Mall and the wharf on a metro surrounded by museums and art and the nation's capitol.
[01:56:37] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I mean, it is, it's outstanding. Ideal piece of land.
[01:56:41] John Coe - host: Yes. Right. It is an extraordinary, and it's probably every developer in Washington should be involved. Yes. Everyone from the smallest scale, right? Single family guy all the way to JBG, and you guys and some of the other major mixed use developers should be involved in different sites on that, in that, in that location.
[01:57:03] John Coe - host: The question is, who's gonna put together the whole master plan to get that done, and what will it be? Because unfortunately recently the wharf changed hands. Yeah. But it wasn't by the volition of the original development team. Unfortunately, the equity partner basically took over the project. The, the financing.
[01:57:25] John Coe - host: Yeah. Partner. Yeah. Now the project itself, long term is gonna do extremely well. I think whether it economically, it's gonna do really extraordinarily well. Mm-hmm. Might take a little bit more time. Mm-hmm. Potentially. So building that kind of scale of a mile long development.
[01:57:45] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Right. It's, it's really hard. I mean, it's a massive undertaking.
[01:57:49] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And the other thing I would say is that you want to, to the extent that you can free it from partisan politics, and so what you don't want, I mean right. We've been watching this with the FBI, with the bouncing ball, depending on who's in power. You, you want something where you can get some level of consensus.
[01:58:06] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Because the other thing, you know, as, as you know, I'm sure you discussed with a number of your guests, is that, you know, these projects span so many years that you need consistency and reliability. So people are gonna make such a massive investment. They want to know that they're not gonna be jerked around by political winds that shift in one direction then another.
[01:58:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And people start working on a project and they say, no, no, no, no. This has become now a political issue. We're gonna repopulate these buildings, we're gonna do this, we're gonna move ca, you know, we, things are leaving the district. No, no. Things are coming back, what's happening with the federal workforce? So you really want to try to clear out an enclave and get consistent messaging that there's a, a development opportunity that will be supported regardless of administration.
[01:58:51] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm.
[01:58:51] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: That's important. So how do you see through that? Mm-hmm. Is the question. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I know that there are boards now. I think it's the Public Reform Board. Is it that Yes. That hired, am I saying right? Public something Reform board. Yes. Public Building reform. Public building Reform Board, thank you.
[01:59:13] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Which hired JLL and they've done a number of listening sessions, one of which I participated in, and they're trying to come up with, you know, smart concrete recommendations for how to, to, to do this re how to approach this redevelopment. One
[01:59:29] John Coe - host: of my former podcast guests, Dan Matthews mm-hmm. The former head of GSA Yep.
[01:59:34] John Coe - host: Is on that board. Mm-hmm. And he's very much working with landlords, with GSA, working with the contraction of GSA and the federal government as far as helping them think it through. But I think they're all, he's also thinking about what he'll do after that all process done. Mm-hmm. The question is who's gonna step up and make, you know, the
[01:59:54] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: first move.
[01:59:55] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. And if, and if, and if you can get a move made under this administration and start to make progress. I mean, we still have three plus years. You know, you're gonna wanna hope that that isn't for Naugh and that if there is a change, you know, whatever direction they go in, if you're gonna get people in the private sector of the table, they're gonna wanna know that they're not gonna get, you know, a 13 jerk around again, jerk.
[02:00:19] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. A complete jerk around in 29. You know, for politics on the other side. Right. So that's why my hope is that wherever, whatever direction, whatever progress they make in the next few years has an error of bipartisanship to it, because that is a key to, its surviving administration
[02:00:38] John Coe - host: changes. Mm-hmm.
[02:00:39] John Coe - host: That's, that's my theory on this. Sure. So that's within the District of Columbia, and you mentioned Northern Virginia. Where in Northern Virginia do you see opportunity, do you think? You know,
[02:00:48] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: there's been a lot of growth in Fairfax. We are eager to see, you know, we, we look around there and also in, in Arlington and Alexandria, I think, you know, we have also, I mean, looked a lot in Montgomery County.
[02:01:03] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I'm quite concerned about some of the, the red caps that have been imposed. I think that we do not have the right leadership now there. And I mean, the, the growth is completely flat in that jurisdiction, in that county. And that concerns me. It's like, I think there's a lot of people on the sidelines who would like to be players in Montgomery County, but it is, they're repelled right now by what's going on.
[02:01:27] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think that's very, very challenging.
[02:01:28] John Coe - host: I
[02:01:28] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: did a UI
[02:01:29] John Coe - host: tap on University Boulevard. Yes. From Silver Spring all the way to Four Corners, if you know that area. It's a fascinating real estate development potential there. Mm-hmm. Is that Purple line area? North of that. North of that. Okay. Yeah. So Purple Line goes through Chevy Chase and from Silver Spring.
[02:01:50] John Coe - host: This is north of the Beltway. This is, you know, oh. Further out, you know, this is University Boulevard from basically Wheaton. I see. It's more Wheaton East over to, you know, silver Spring for Corners Area, which is New Hampshire and University of Boulevard. That stretch is fascinating. A lot of churches.
[02:02:09] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. Uh, mostly single family actually, but there's some high rise residential in some areas there along the parks. Mm-hmm. There's a park that goes, Ligos Creek goes right up across there. Yeah. It's an interesting area, but what's, what you mentioned is the, this constraint that they put on with the, with the rent control.
[02:02:26] John Coe - host: Mm-hmm. Which, you know, just really puts a damper on residential development, unfortunately. Yeah.
[02:02:34] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think it's, it's, it's made it, I mean, I think any opportunity for growth has really dropped off there, so I don't know if that'll be a political football, if that's an experiment that they will Yeah. You know, end up, end up repealing.
[02:02:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I hope
[02:02:47] John Coe - host: they, I hope they consider it. Mm-hmm. Horning Brothers, Horning emphasizes community service and collaboration. You have a background leveraging your experience to build and serve communities. Could you discuss your personal philosophy on the role of developers and giving back to, and investing in communities where they work?
[02:03:06] John Coe - host: Sure. I mean, quite simply,
[02:03:09] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: you know, if we're in a community. We're trying to make that community better. So we're interfacing with our residents and we are on the front lines of understanding and seeing whether there are services that they need, whether there are issues related to hunger or public safety concerns that they have.
[02:03:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so if we can help make connections with nonprofits or government agencies that can provide support, we are there. We're talking to our residents every single day. And so we take that commitment very, very seriously. And so we've looked into trying to leverage caseworkers who can help people who are going through mental health challenges hoarding or, or mm-hmm.
[02:03:58] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, other issues or, or you know, going through various traumas. And so it's really interesting to sit and have a conversation that's, you know, at a very high level. We talk about cap rates. We can talk about investment, you know, strategy. But the operation side of our business, and particular my business in housing, residential housing, property management, you know, affordable and disadvantaged communities mean it becomes very real.
[02:04:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: It is not theoretical exercise. I'm not removed from that. I am. Talking to folks on the ground, talking to my managers, talking to my leasing consultants, talking to our maintenance teams, hearing about challenges on the ground each and every day, and trying to work through that. So I don't think a company like Horning ever disassociates the fact that we own real estate at a high level.
[02:04:59] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And you know, we have this, you know, this, these holdings from the reality of the fact that we are serving residents who live in our buildings. It's just, it's, it's very, very tactical day-to-day, you know, communicating and trying to provide support where we can. And so we don't lose sight of that because it's a daily consonant in what we do.
[02:05:24] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: We are completely integrated, right? So I'm not sitting here in a company of eight people, you know, doing asset management and then somebody else is doing it. I mean, we are one company that is owning and managing communities. So striking the right balance there is actually challenging because so much of what we do has to do with the operations, that if anything, I have to ensure that I'm carving out the time to be at the analytical level around our assets.
[02:05:49] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Because so much of it is day to day, you know, property management.
[02:05:53] John Coe - host: So we haven't talked a little bit about your personal life, so I'd like to get into that a little bit. Sure. So what are your, what are your priorities in your in life, Jamie? So.
[02:06:06] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, having integration, I don't, I don't think of it as balance, but having integration of this, this opportunity, this, this career that I have that means so much to me that fills my cup, that gives me a lot of fulfillment that I find intellectually challenging and engaging and integrating that into my broader life.
[02:06:30] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I think that my, my career is very important to me as is my family, my wife and my two sons, as are my friends and my community at a broader level. Right. And so when I feel most at peace is when I feel that integration, and I'm saying this to somebody the other day, but you know, each of the way I look at each of those three are their own separate cups, so to speak.
[02:07:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Mm-hmm. And it doesn't matter how full one is, it can't fill any of the others. Mm-hmm. So you could be overflowing with a career that is as wonderful as possible, but if you're not able to be there with your family or you're not able, for me, again, it's my three cups to, you know, to devote time, contribute and be with friends or contribute to your community.
[02:07:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: One full cup can't make up for the others. And so I look for integration and I look for. Living a, a, a life and balance that allows me to tend to those different cups and ensure that, that I'm putting the time in and that I am true to myself by, by doing that. And I feel my best when I feel I have, I have full cups across the board.
[02:07:47] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Some days are easier than others do. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's my philosophy quite simply is to right, is to strive for that. And I find it very useful to view it that way because in a way I, in a way it temp. I'm a hard charging person, but it tempers that a little bit because I recognize like I'm striving for peace and I'm striving for balance.
[02:08:11] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So strive implies this like hard work, dedication. Right. But you're not sitting there at two in the morning striving to find balance with your family that because if you are, you should be asleep and getting some rest and taking care of your body. Yeah. So I think that being passionately devoted towards that, that integration and, and, and, and wholeness actually rounds me out a little bit.
[02:08:35] John Coe - host: Well, you and I met when you were chairing Eli Washington. Yes. And so I saw that in action, honestly. And you were, when you were chairman, the, you, you and I hosted the, the fall meeting. Here in Washington. Oh, yes. And that had to have been a big challenge. It was not only putting that together, but managing where you were at Mid-City and, and your family and all that.
[02:09:02] John Coe - host: How, how did that time. Stress you, I guess. Yes.
[02:09:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, it was a tremendous amount of work. It was a culmination. And I, I ended up in this really crazy situation where I was running our, our district council first running my product council within ULI, the public private. Oh my goodness. Really? At the same time.
[02:09:23] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So I planned the day in DC with, with help and support, but I knew what I wanted. Wow. I had both those. Oh yeah. Both at the same time for a year. Which is, which, which, that's insane. Too insane. That was insane. And then the fall meeting coming to, to Our Backyard, and I was on that committee and of course put that together.
[02:09:38] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: So it was, it was wild. I had tremendous support from Mid-City. They were very accommodating, which was very helpful. I, I, I could not have done it, but for their support and understanding that this was a big opportunity. And I also do get fulfillment from, from being busy and from putting something together like that, the, the, the social aspects.
[02:10:00] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: The opportunity to showcase a city that I'm obviously passionate about, a region that I'm passionate about. So it was like the Super Bowl. Right. You're excited.
[02:10:09] John Coe - host: So, I mean, that event at the wharf, I think was probably in my 40 years in Washington, perhaps the, the best event I've ever been in. That was fantastic.
[02:10:18] John Coe - host: That one night. I remember that night. It was an incredible night up here. There.
[02:10:21] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah.
[02:10:21] John Coe - host: It was unbelievable.
[02:10:22] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah, it really was. It was a fantastic night. And then everyone was out at all the, yeah. Bars and restaurants. We also had probably the best weather, if I recall, in September. It was gorgeous.
[02:10:31] John Coe - host: Yeah.
[02:10:32] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And that was like.
[02:10:33] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, six months before the pandemic. And I, I, I, to this day, I sort of, you know, honor and and respect how wonderful that was. So, it's kind of nice when you work that hard and then you pull it off. So, so I have, you know, no regrets. I think back quite fondly about, about that effort. 'cause I really feel like it was, it was worth it to give a great experience.
[02:10:53] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Yeah. So
[02:10:53] John Coe - host: I love that. I, I didn't realize that you had the, the product council too. And for listeners, product council is a national, you know, I think there's what, 30 of 'em? 50 of 'em on, uh, I think almost 70 now. 70, yes. So these are national groups or international groups that come around a topic of some sort.
[02:11:12] John Coe - host: So yeah, you were on the public private one. Is that Yes,
[02:11:15] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: I'm a public, private person. I mean,
[02:11:16] John Coe - host: there's retail, there's office, there's all the different right. Disciplines in our business. But you know, you have your obligations. You have to do the fall and spring meetings, and then you also have to. Make a presentation and do work.
[02:11:29] John Coe - host: You know, you don't just sit back and participate and watch, you have to actually make presentations and put together research and all that in addition to doing your job and all those other, and they charge, I don't know, is it 15 grand or it's a lot of money. You, it's not cheap. It's not cheap to do this.
[02:11:46] John Coe - host: Right, right. Exactly. So it's, but that's how ULI started. Yes. They've grown tremendously before the district councils even existed. Yeah. The product council network was the, that was the origin of the firm, of the, of the entity. Anyway, UI is great. I've always loved it. So if you could put one message about real estate development or community building on a billboard in Washington DC what would it say here?
[02:12:08] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: You know, I was thinking about this and, you know, it wouldn't be a short billboard, John, but I, I, as I said earlier, the built environment provides shelter, provides places for us to gather and live our lives. And that's a good thing. So if you think about the built environment as a, as a net positive, then you can change the tone and tenor to be one where you, as I said earlier, assume good intentions of others.
[02:12:39] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: And so if I were putting out a message about real estate development or community building, you know, the built environment should work. In alignment with the goals of communities and there is a, there is a positive way to do that. So that's, that's what I would put out there.
[02:12:57] John Coe - host: Optimism. Optimism. We need it, it, that's great.
[02:13:01] John Coe - host: So Jamie Weinbaum, thank you for your time. Thank you for this widespread wide reaching interview and, but keep doing what you do.
[02:13:10] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: Thank you, John. Very, you please
[02:13:11] John Coe - host: keep
[02:13:12] Jamie Weinbaum - guest: doing the same as well. Thank you, appreciate.
