Show Notes
Bios
Jay Epstien
Jay Epstien represents local and national owners, developers and users in all aspects of real estate transactions involving urban office buildings, shopping centers and mixed use projects.
He has been the lead lawyer on many of the largest office leases in Washington, DC, representing both landlords and tenants, including numerous law firms that have sought his counsel. He has represented major corporations in corporate real estate facilities matters, involving corporate relocations and disposition of significant existing facilities. In addition, he has represented both landlords and tenants in major grocery store leases throughout the United States.
Under Jay’s leadership, the DLA Piper real estate practice became the leading practice in the world. He also created the DLA Piper Global Real Estate Summits − industry-leading events held in Chicago, London, Tel Aviv and Dubai – which established DLA Piper as the global thought leader among real estate law firms.
Fred Klein
Fred Klein helps real estate and finance clients solve problems, structure and close complex real estate transactions and manage risk.
Fred represents offshore, local and national developers and investors, and construction and permanent lenders (including life insurers) on transactions, development projects, and real estate finance.
His clients include owners, operators and developers of office, multifamily, retail, hotels, manufactured housing and student housing in major markets and in more than 25 states. Fred has advised numerous clients on the purchase and sale of distressed debt, and has extensive experience representing borrowers and lenders on loan workouts and disputes. He has also recently assisted several clients in connection with the restructuring of ground leases, and has drafted and negotiated numerous ground leases during the past 30 years. Some of these clients are families that have owned income producing property for several generations, and in those cases, Fred helped either to restructure or reposition the assets, or advise on sales strategies.
Show Notes
Current Roles
Jay Epstien
- 25 years with DLA Piper now together (5:00)
- Senior Partner with firm and connecting people around the firm (5:15)
Fred Klein
- Co-partner and leader of the Real Estate group of firm in Washington DC (5:50)
- Coordinates exporting business throughout the firm (6:40)
- Negotiate, draft, structure deals (7:00)
Origin Stories
Fred Klein
- Cumberland, MD- Dad was a dress manufacturer (7:40)
- Moved to NY when a child (7:55)
- NY Mets and Jets fan
- Went to Mercersburg Academy (8:20)
- Great experience there
- Involved with several activities there
- 50th Reunion
- First coed class when he was there in 1969
- Attended Duke University (11:15)
- Learned about writing from four people (11:40)
- Floyd Robinson at Mercersburg
- Andy Burness at Duke
- Judge Paul Roney (12:10)
- Shelly Weisel (12:30)
- Learned about writing from four people (11:40)
- University of Miami Law School (13:15)
- New Dean of the school- Soia Mentschikoff
- Guest lecturer there (14:05)
Jay Epstien
- Grew up in West Orange, NJ (14:25)
- Memories of being a NY Yankees fan (15:00)
- Dad owned a hardware store in Newark, NJ- Name was changed from Epstein to Epstien (16:00)
- Attended Case Western Reserve University– Engineering degree (16:40)
- Played basketball there
- Focused on material science
- Decided to pivot to law
- Worked at Ortho Pharmaceutical for a while
- Attended Cornell Law School- 160 students per class (18:15)
- Transition was difficult coming from engineering to law (19:30)
Fred Klein
- Law professors often are frustrated actors (21:15)
- Professors tell stories (21:45)
- Reference to Shelly Weisel to inspect a property to understand it relative to working on it
- Understand the context that the property needs to be
- Loves law because of the context
- Story telling is critical to success
- Context is important (23:30)
Jay Epstien
- Reference to Irving Younger– Professor who was a great “performer” (24:00)
- Tried litigation and decided it was not for him (25:20)
- Putting people together and liked deal making (25:40)
- Fred Drasner of Shaw Pittman told him to join the real estate firm by taking on the Boston Properties account (26:20)
- Finished law school in 1976 and wanted to try Washington as a contrast to NY (27:30)
- Summer associate at Shaw Pittman while in law school (28:15)
- Group of summer associates all made Partner
Fred Klein
- Out of law school, he became a clerk for Federal Judge (29:15)
- Studied for bar exam in DC with his buddy (29:50)
- Just started scouting jobs in DC one summer while studying
- Went down the list and picked off a few firms (31:30)
- Walked in off the street and handed his resume at Shaw Pittman to meet with an attorney, John Carr there (32:25)
- Few interviews and got two interviews- Shaw Pittman and Hogan and Hartson and took Shaw Pittman job (34:00)
- Free agent initially at SPPT in 1980 (35:20)
- Worked on power plant project in Houston, TX or an opportunity to work with Steve Huttler, who was working on B. F. Saul‘s business- pecan farm (35:45)
- Worked on real estate from then on with Shelly Weisel
- Worked on power plant project in Houston, TX or an opportunity to work with Steve Huttler, who was working on B. F. Saul‘s business- pecan farm (35:45)
Jay Epstien
- List of practices at Shaw Pittman
- Nuclear law (37:30)
- Business lawyers- Ted Rogers (see link below of a letter written by Fred Klein), Barbara Rissotti (38:00)
- Aviation practice- Steve Potts (38:20)
- Real Estate- Shelly Weisel, Marty Krall, Fred Drasner
- Jay negotiated lease for Shaw Pittman on 1800 M St. NW in the mid 1970s with the Oliver Carr Company (40:30)
- John Donovan
- Phil Carr
Fred Klein
- Fred mentions that they would not be the lawyers they would be today without the experiences learned from the attorneys who trained them at Shaw Pittman (44:00)
Jay Epstien
- Enumerates all of the benefits of each of their mentors (46:00)
- Fred Drasner- started as a tax lawyer and became one of the best real estate lawyers in the city
- Marty Krall- Corporate lawyer
- Stef Tucker
Fred Klein
- Law firms are the best place to learn the law and the framework (48:00)
- Shortcoming if a lawyer doesn’t work at a firm for a little time
Jay Epstien
- Path forward to go to a law firm first before other options typically out of leading firms (50:50)
- Find a place where you like the people (51:50)
- Because law is so challenging, find a place where you enjoy your colleagues (53:00)
- Citing Jack Murray’s rationale to go to an institutional investment firm, Prudential, as in house counsel instead of a law firm (54:00)
- Almost hired him
- Boston Properties example
- Fear factor of law firms
- Culture of entrepreneurial clientele- “just enough rope” (57:00)
- Access to senior lawyers
- David Rubenstein was at Shaw Pittman before forming Carlyle (58:00)
Fred Klein
- Divisions of disciplines in real estate law (58:45)
- Team of Jay and Fred- View as one advisor (59:30)
- Leasing & Development law- Jay (1:00:00)
- Transactional law with financing- Fred (1:00:45)
- More specialization today (1:01:30)
- Take a holistic approach to real estate law (1:02:20)
- Need to understand tax laws and implications into partnership law (1:02:40)
- Business understanding is critical to be a good real estate lawyer (1:03:30)
Jay Epstien
- Business interpretation is critical (1:05:00)
- Land Use and Zoning is its own discipline and that Shaw Pittman would partner with specialist firms like Wilkes Artis and Linowes & Blocher (1:06:00)
- DC is a great collaborating market with multiple practices (1:08:45)
- Met Steve Lustgarten of Blake while representing First Washington to negotiate a JV on 1150 18th St. NW (1:10:30)
- Discussed relationship with Blake (1:11:30)
- Boston Properties (1:12:00)
- Mort Zuckerman, Ed Linde, Bob Burke, Ray Ritchey
- List of all of Boston Properties’ deals in Washington
- Mort said that Shelly Weisel was the best lawyer he ever worked with (1:13:50)
- Cited a story about ground leasing with Mort Zuckerman (1:14:30)
Fred Klein
- Relationships are bedrock of lawyers’ business (1:15:45)
- Need to maintain relationships
- Contribute time and energy to non-client relationships is important
- Spend countless hours to build a relationship and only two minutes to destroy it (1:17:40)
- Client relationships for over 40+ years
Jay Epstien
- Cites partnership to help Steve Lustgarten on 2100 K St., a complicated build to suit for the International Finance Corporation (1:18:45)
- Join real estate organizations-DCBIA, ICSC, The Real Estate Group (1:20:10)
Fred Klein
- Fred never wanted to become a real estate owner, and just loves legal work and counseling (1:22:10)
- Working more on pro-bono and non profit activities (1:23:00)
Jay Epstien
- Practice of law has been good to them (1:24:45)
- Law adapts even when business cycles are more volatile
- Jay says need to “care” about your clients’ needs and understand the business side of the client and have a “personal stake” in the clients’ needs (1:27:55)
- Lucky enough to become friends with key clients (1:29:30)
Fred Klein
- Fred re-emphasizes the “care” aspect of dealing with clients (1:30:00)
- Treat people fairly and care
Jay Epstien
- Jay says that Fred is the best mentor to young lawyers to push them to be a better lawyer (1:31:00)
- Fred is great at sharing best practices (see link below)
- Fred is meticulous in law
- Real challenge to represent clients whom you may not agree with often (1:33:30)
- Client makes the decisions (1:35:00)
- Office use will be different (1:36:00)
- Important for law firms to come back to the office (1:36:20)
- Law firms will give up space (1:36:55)
- Densification and now “de-densifying” (1:38:00)
- Future of cities (1:38:30)
- Height limit now not a “constraint”
- Survival of the most adaptable (1:39:20)
- “Cannot build culture remotely”– Roy March (1:39:50)
- Hiring and onboarding is difficult to do without “presence” in an office (1:40:00)
- Mentorship is difficult to do remotely (1:40:45)
- Productivity level is materially better when people are together (1:41:30)
Fred Klein
- Business travel will resume to an extent, perhaps not as frequently as the past (1:42:30)
- Fred’s three children (35,31 & 28) all want to return to the office (1:44:20)
Jay Epstien
- Reduction in space will be done as a result of less frequent use (1:46:45)
Fred Klein
- Contribution to the community- Fred works with Martha’s Table (1:47:50)
- Pro bono activities
- Enhance personal brand by getting involved in community activities
Jay Epstien
- Worked with Higher Achievement via Mitchell Schear (1:49:20)
- Annika Sorenstam Foundation (1:51:00)
- Cites the series of acquisitions of lawyers to join the firm as Managing Partner (1:53:00)
Fred Klein
- Cited Glenn Rosenthal and Nick Antonelli situations (1:54:30)
- Citation of Spring Valley Center (1:59:00)
Jay Epstien
- Relocation of BNA transaction to Crystal City with Vornado (reference to Michael Goodwin) (2:01:00)
- Story of Robert Gottlieb telling Jay that he was lucky to work with his best friend (2:03:45)
- Find a position where you enjoy your work (2:04:50)
- Find people that will teach and mentor you (2:06:00)
- Thank God we pivoted and listen to what others have to say (2:07:50)
- Listening is the most important characteristic (2:08:00)
Postscript
- Tom Amos brings up “Company culture cannot be done remotely” issue
- Working for a construction company, he agrees that it needs to be done in person (2:11:00)
- Dependent on what firms do (2:12:50)
- Inverse correlation with experience with firm and comfort of working together (2:13:45)
- Evolution of law firms (2:15:45)
- Automated law firms
- Specialization in real estate law (2:18:00)
References
- Letter from Fred Klein to Steve Huttler regarding Ted Rogers
- Fred Klein’s Practice Tips for Young Real Estate Lawyers
