Jessie Barter- Charging Into the Future (#127)

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hi, I'm John Ko and welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate, a one on one interview show featuring the backgrounds, career trajectories and insights of the top luminaries in the Washington D.C. area Real estate market. The purpose of the show was to explore their journeys, how they got started, the pivotal moments that shaped their careers, and the lessons they've learned along the way. We also dive into their current work, industry trends, and some fascinating behind the scenes stories that bring unique perspective to our industry. Commercial Real Estate before we dive into today's conversation, I'd like to share some exciting news. The icons of D.C. area Real estate Podcast is now part of the Iconic Journey in cre, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting professionals at every stage of their real estate careers. With our new website, www.ijcre.org, we're expanding opportunities for everyone in the industry. 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To learn more about our community, career coaching or sponsorship opportunities, please visit our new website, www.ijcre.org. thank you for being part of this journey and now let's get started with today's guest. Welcome to another episode of icons of D.C. area real estate. I'm so pleased to introduce my guest for today's show who is Jessie Barter, who is the principal of Charger Ventures, a firm that she started in 2018. Jesse is a third generation Montgomery county resident and she has deep roots in the D.C. area and a rich background in real estate that spans over 15 years. After earning her degree from Georgetown and gaining valuable experience at firms like Bear Stearns, Avalon Bay and Mill Creek, Jesse launched Charger Ventures to focus on multifamily acquisitions in secondary and tertiary markets. In this episode, Jessie shares her unique approach to real estate, emphasizing the importance of off market deals and rigorous asset management. She discusses her commitment to creating a brand that resonates with residents and fosters a sense of community. As well as her innovative strategies for navigating the current multifamily investment landscape. Listeners can also gain insights into Jesse's entrepreneurial journey, her thoughts on evolving market dynamics, and her vision for the future of Charger Ventures. Additionally, she reflects on the importance of mentorship, collaboration, and maintaining a strong company culture. She also started Spark Communities as well as an asset branded asset management firm. So join us as we explore Jesse's inspiring story and the lessons she's learned along the way in the competitive world of our industry. So, Jesse Barter, welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate. Thank you for joining me today. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:04:36] Speaker A: So I've already had the introduction that I produce on the podcast, so I just wanted to get a high level view of what you started Charger Ventures, your current firm, what's your current role and focus with that company? [00:04:53] Speaker B: Sure. So with Charger, I am point on production, which we consider both deal flow as well as equity partnerships. Okay. [00:05:02] Speaker A: So I mean, what do you spend your day doing right now? [00:05:05] Speaker B: Typically sourcing deals and equity. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Okay. And I assume debt too, when you have that need. Yes, I assume. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes. When we have the first two, then we go after the third. Yes. [00:05:18] Speaker A: Right. Then you also have a separate operating company we'll get into, but I assume you have some oversight there. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Well, right, yes, Yes. I love asset management and find it hard to extract from that completely, but I have a very strong partner who is in charge of performance, Lindsay Pomponi. So that is her purview. [00:05:40] Speaker A: That's great. So quickly, what different your approach differentiates your approach in a very competitive market. [00:05:49] Speaker B: I think that our strengths probably lie in we preliminarily pretty much only source off market. So a function of the relationships that we've developed over time. And we don't always hope to get better the market pricing, but it's more just that we hope to get control. And that's a function of our being a smaller shop with, you know, lesser resources. It just feels a better way to use our resources to make sure we have control. And then sometimes we get better pricing, which is, which is also nice. And then I think we also have a core competency in rigorous asset management. So we just really, really have no threshold for materiality in terms of what is significant. Everything is significant when we're operating our properties, we want to be optimizing them operationally from a finance perspective. However, we're putting debt on the asset or managing the debt in place. So it's just a real. We just have a really. We go into looking at every deal with eyes wide open all the time. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm going to be interested to learn as we dig further into your off market strategy and how you get into that and how you develop your relationships because you do have a long career prior to starting this venture. So I assume that network is broad such that you've been able to dive into places where other people haven't. I want to learn more about that. We can. Before we do that though, I would like to get into your origin story, if I could a little bit. Tell me about your origins. I understand you grew up in the D.C. area. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Yes, third generation Montgomery county resident and went to high school in Georgetown and college in Georgetown also. So my family is local as well. Came from a family of doctors that were determined that I not go into medicine. So my brother and I both went into real estate. [00:07:54] Speaker A: So why not? Why didn't. Why were they encouraging you not to go into medicine? [00:07:59] Speaker B: I don't even know the full reasons for that, to be honest. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think they just felt the industry had changed over the last several weeks. [00:08:09] Speaker A: It's funny, my last podcast guest had the same response. Blake Politicio. His father's a neurosurgeon and he said. [00:08:16] Speaker B: His father's friends with my father. Yeah. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:08:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:20] Speaker A: That's interesting because he said that he started looking at it. He said, but he said, you don't want it. His father said, don't do that. You know, it's too long, it takes too much time. So. So what disciplines did you learn from your parents? You know, I mean, they were both. You said your mother's also a doctor as well. [00:08:40] Speaker B: No, she was a teacher. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Teacher. Okay. [00:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:44] Speaker A: All right. So what did you learn from them that kind of made you want to go the direction you did? Just out of curiosity, I think the. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Skills that I gained from my parents from my father was probably adaptability. So he was a surgeon and also received his MBA during his career. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Really? [00:09:02] Speaker B: Yes. And also has been a prolific expert witness, so in various class action lawsuits in the medical field. So he has a bit of a jack of all trades. And I think I learned from him how to, you know, for lack of a better word, bob and weave in different circumstances. You know, it's definitely driven by curiosity and a desire to learn, I think, which I share. But I also got to see him maneuver in different ways so very few. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Doctors have an mba. So tell me that story a little bit. I'm curious. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Well, my father was at Georgetown University, and I believe one of the benefits of that was you could receive. You could go to school. So he decided he would get an executive mba. Maybe it was just an excuse to spy on me while I was also at. I'm not sure. [00:09:52] Speaker A: So you and he were at the same. He was at school at the same time you were? [00:09:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:57] Speaker A: That's interesting. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Yes. So I actually, I think he just had a really strong desire to learn business fundamentals and to figure out if there were opportunities between medicine and business. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Did he think about being in hospital administration at one point? I mean, was that part of. No. Okay. [00:10:15] Speaker B: No. I mean, he did work as an expert with medical device companies, some medical device startup companies, and, you know, working with, you know, just cutting edge technologies. So I think that. [00:10:30] Speaker A: So he learned how to invest in them then, potentially by doing that. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Yes, I think it helped him bridge the two. [00:10:36] Speaker A: Interesting. Interesting. And then your mom taught. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah, so my mom was a teacher, but she. She did not teach after she had my. Me or my brother. But I think from her I learned mostly like a very, like, very strong sense for details. And she's probably what we owe our lack of materiality to because everything is material when it comes to numbers with her. So a very strong, just like a sense of rigor when analyzing different circumstances across the board. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Does she have as strong a personality as you do as far as being a woman? [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Okay, that's great. Yes, that's great. So, so then you went. You went to Georgetown University. And so what experiences did you have there? Did you play sports there at Georgetown or. [00:11:29] Speaker B: I was. No, that's actually a source of great humor. So I lived with five varsity captains my senior year, and I was a complete non athlete. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Really? [00:11:39] Speaker B: Yes, but we were all great friends and. And I just. I played tennis, you know, in high school, but I didn't progress beyond that, so I just. Yeah, I enjoyed going for long walks. That was the extent of my athletic prowess in college, but. [00:11:57] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:11:58] Speaker B: My friends were nice enough to befriend the walker of the group, if you will. [00:12:02] Speaker A: So I heard on another podcast your nickname is the source of the name of your company. So talk about your nickname and how you got that. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Yes, I actually, I'm not really sure who coined it, but Charger was my nickname and it started in college and I think it kind of just exemplified kind of just like my go to attitude in, you know, in whatever application or setting that I was in. It was just kind of a. That was the best way to put it. Just. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Did you lead any. Lead any clubs or any kind of organizations while you're in school? [00:12:36] Speaker B: We had an informal club of girlfriends that I was the president of. Yes, but. Okay, informal. [00:12:43] Speaker A: All right. I figured there had to be something there. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:47] Speaker A: That gave you that. [00:12:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:49] Speaker A: So I would sense that. Yeah. Okay, so that's interesting. So then finished up at Georgetown and then what did you think you wanted to do? [00:12:58] Speaker B: Well, I was. After eight years in Georgetown, I was dead set on not being in D.C. anymore, that was for sure. So, okay. Yeah. But I also graduated during the dot com bust, so hiring was a little under pressure. So ultimately I, I accepted a nanny job in Shelter island in Long island so that I could nanny and then also interview in the city because I was all, I, I knew I wanted to be on Wall street, whatever that looked like. So I was able to basically spend a summer in Shelter island and ultimately through networking with Georgetown alumni, was able to get a job at Bear Stearns in equity research. That was an interesting experience, interviewing, because I was also on the same, basically on the same days when I would go into the city to interview. I ultimately ended up with two offers, one from Ralph Lauren, which I had also achieved through, I think, networking through Georgetown alums and then Bear Stearns. So very different paths. [00:13:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:54] Speaker B: And my parents were like, well, you have an accounting and a finance degree and you. We look forward to you being independent, so you get to choose. And so that was a, you know, lovely. [00:14:08] Speaker A: So what was the Ralph Lauren opportunity? [00:14:11] Speaker B: I don't even remember what it was, to be honest. I don't know. I mean, I, I just think I was excited about the discount that I would have been able to get, to be honest. And, and that was. So the compensation packages reflected that and they were bit different as well. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker B: So ultimately I, I joined Bear Stearns and, you know, with that it was an equity research role, but liaising between the trading floor and research. So not directly in a sector, but it was a great experience. And I got to New York. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Did you have any sense of what the fate of Bear Stearns was going to be at the time you were there or not? [00:14:52] Speaker B: Not in the cheap seats. No. [00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Pretty amazing what happened there. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So you were trading? [00:15:02] Speaker B: We were not. I was in research. So we, we basically were assisting behind the scenes and helping the traders that we were partnered with basically just to make sure they were aware of like breaking news and, and stock research, basically. Yes. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Okay. Companies and financial statements a little bit. [00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:25] Speaker A: Okay. And did that turn you on or, or. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it was super interesting. Like things that I took away, I think were probably nothing direct. Like nothing immediately from that experience per se. In, in my daily life now, except for we work pretty long hours. I had to be at my desk at 6am every day ahead of the market opening and then. So, I mean, it was a great way to get disciplined as a 22 year old pretty quickly. And also we, we sent out a lot of emails, like a lot, which I'm still known for. And there was a great attend. Like you had to be very sure you were putting accurate, very accurate information. So I think it just taught me to like, always try to proofread and make sure what I. And I'm, I've gotten lax at that now, I feel like. But at the time, you know, you were basically transmitting very, very timely information to the traders that would then immediately be trading on that information. So you had to make sure it was accurate. Those are probably. [00:16:29] Speaker A: You wish you had AI back then, right? [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:16:36] Speaker A: That would have helped a lot. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Mm. Yes. So those were probably my two best life. Life lessons that. And I just, I can't. I broke so many pairs of heels walking around New York City and running around New York City. That was like. I just, was just going through black heels, like a pair every two weeks, it felt like. So it was, it was a really fun experience. [00:16:59] Speaker A: And so you're there at 6, at your desk at 6:00am and then you'd have to, what you there till 10:00 at night. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Sometimes it wasn't, it was more like we were lucky because we were more tied to the market hours. We had to. Yeah. And I think, you know, I know. [00:17:15] Speaker A: Some of the investment banking people were. [00:17:16] Speaker B: I was gonna say, I think they were on a little bit of a. They were on a later schedule. Yes. [00:17:21] Speaker A: That's nuts. [00:17:22] Speaker B: For sure. [00:17:23] Speaker A: So how long were you with Bear? [00:17:24] Speaker B: I was with Bear ultimately just for two years. After probably the first year, I realized that I, you know, I didn't think I would be in that role for a long time. I knew I wanted to get another degree, so I became pretty focused on applying to business schools and figuring out, you know, what that might look like. [00:17:43] Speaker A: You went to Darden? So what drove that decision? [00:17:46] Speaker B: My family, my parents and then my brother all were, you know, had been or were at UVA at the time. So I was able to be overlapped with my brother when he was in Undergrad, actually. So that was lovely. And obviously uva in Charlottesville were quite a bit different than New York City. So I think I. I think I was ready for a change in terms of setting. And I just had. We had a. I had a couple friends who had been to Darden and. And said really nice things. It offers a case medic, case method style, which is a little different. And I mean, I visited and applied to several schools, but ultimately that felt like a great choice. [00:18:23] Speaker A: I've interviewed a lot of people that went there. Yeah. So good. Good program. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Yep. [00:18:31] Speaker B: So I was young to go to business school, but I also knew that I wanted to have a family. And that's not. That's a little. I think the women that attend business school and get their MBAs sometimes do skew a little younger and have a fewer, like, perhaps less working experience just because of, you know, the timelines sometimes that we have in mind. [00:18:54] Speaker A: So what, what, what was your focus at D? [00:18:57] Speaker B: It's a general. It's just a general business degree. I was able at the time. They had two real estate classes, which I took in my second year. So not as heavy a real estate focus as some of the other schools. You. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Is that when you caught the bug, real estate? [00:19:11] Speaker B: A little bit, yes. Yes. I just. My brother had gone into business. We had many family friends that were in real estate that had been trying to lure me into it, and coming from, you know, several of our friends of our family that were in Washington, D.C. that where obviously real estate's prolific. So I think I, I finally kind of listened. I. I heard them out. [00:19:37] Speaker A: So after Darden, then what talk about that? [00:19:40] Speaker B: Yes. So then I joined. I was lucky to get a job at a private equity fund in Dallas that Sacri Partners, that focuses that focus at the time on the four main food groups. So was able to get, you know, jump in and work on deals immediately is like a. [00:19:56] Speaker A: So you moved to Dallas? [00:19:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:59] Speaker A: That's a big change. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Yes, yes. But it was great exposure. It was a great experience. I mean, like, the founders are wonderful people. I'm still in touch with them and very grateful for the experience. Of course, I really didn't. You know, with two classes of real estate under my belt, I didn't have too much immediate skill talk. No, it was really a learning ground for me, if you will. And I was able to get good exposure across the food groups and just in terms of working on some new developments as well as acquisitions. [00:20:28] Speaker A: So there's a private equity firm. So you just. Traditional acquisitions is that what you were. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Doing or investments in development. [00:20:35] Speaker A: Okay, all right. So mostly joint venture partners that you were investing with? [00:20:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Okay. So you were looking at JV structures and all that. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Okay. I was pretty much just trying to figure out how to build models at that point. So I wasn't deep in the JV docs then. I was just trying to figure out how to get all the math to. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Work Argus and Excel at that point or. [00:20:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:00] Speaker B: But in that experience, I did. I did realize that I was gravitating towards multi among the food groups and did really enjoy the pace of the acquisitions. [00:21:12] Speaker A: So why multi for you? [00:21:15] Speaker B: I think I just like the diversified nature of it. So it's just, you know, I was a little nervous about office and industrial. If you had a big tenant roll off or, you know, you had exposure to me, it just seemed easier that you would get heads on bed if you needed. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Well, at that time, multifamily just exploded and becoming the number one product out there about the time you were there, probably. So I'm guessing because of the emergence of Fannie and Freddie being in the lending market. And I saw it firsthand in the early 90s when I interviewed Tom Bozzuto, he said I was the orphan stepchild multifamily, because all the focus was on office, retail and industrial. He said. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:06] Speaker A: You know, multi family. We were like. And then suddenly it just took off and it was basically because of finance. The capital markets changed in the 90s and CMBS and all that. And then because of the Fannie and Freddie, the stability took in and that's what I think changed the market. I don't know what your perspective of that is, but that's the way I look at it. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I didn't have the. I didn't have the experiences before jumping into it, but I think it was just. It was also the most relatable asset class. And I just. I felt like I had, you know, at least been in, you know, an apartment before and could relate to. To what we were trying to invest in. [00:22:49] Speaker A: So then you joined Avalon Bay, and I'm guessing you stayed. You moved back from Dallas to. To this area to do that. Is that correct? Yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yes. And that was a great opportunity. I was able to work in acquisitions and just joined in 08, I think. So just as things were changing. Yes, it was a little slower in the beginning, but had great. [00:23:14] Speaker A: That's a stable company to be with at that time. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yes. And it was. I mean, it had a wonderful training program and Was able to learn a lot. I think my first acquisition I worked on was actually out in Seattle, but primarily was focused on the Mid Atlantic and the Northeast. [00:23:31] Speaker A: So was that a big change going from private equity into a public REIT for you? As far as the way they looked at things and how they analyzed them. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Parts of it were. But actually, at that time, Avalon had a fund, a sidecar fund. So I believe I came at the tail end of the investment for the first fund in the beginning of the investigation. Is this before they went public for the second fund? No, it was while they were public. Yeah. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:23:59] Speaker B: So in that regards, it was kind of. I was going from one fund initiative from another or to another, but we also were doing dispositions, you know, depending on capital market needs or, you know, needs in order to fund development. So there was. Parts of it were similar, and obviously parts of it were very different. [00:24:20] Speaker A: So you just deepened your experience there, more or less? Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah. [00:24:25] Speaker B: And got a lot more reps and sure was able to learn from a blue chip company. So that was, yeah, great training ground. [00:24:34] Speaker A: So then you shifted over to Mill Creek. So what. What drove that change, out of curiosity? [00:24:39] Speaker B: Yes. Well, I had had a great experience at Avalon, and I thought, you know, at that point when I was leaving Avalon, we were no longer deploying for the fund, so it was more balance sheet investing and debt was. We weren't doing individual debt. So I just, like, I felt like I needed to shore up my. My skills for capitalizing deals. And at Mill Creek, they were working with a variety of different partners to deploy capital. And so it was. I was able to learn about, you know, more structures, more ways to scaffold deals together, different ways to capitalize them. So it was like. It was. I just felt like I needed that. I remember feeling like I just. I needed to shore that part of my toolkit up. [00:25:24] Speaker A: And so backtracking a moment to Avalon. Curious if you had experience with Lily Dunn? [00:25:29] Speaker B: Yes, yes. She ran the group for much of the time that I was there. [00:25:34] Speaker A: So you reported to her. Okay. [00:25:36] Speaker B: Yes, actually. And my. I reported to Pat Nideck and then Lily ran the group. The bigger, I think, all of investments, I should say. Yeah. [00:25:45] Speaker A: You stay in touch with her? Yeah, yeah, she's on my list. Hopefully I'll get her. [00:25:52] Speaker B: Absolutely, yes. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Oh, she's special. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Her mentor and mine are the same. So that's how we got to meet each other. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. [00:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Actually, one of my guests rattles are, you know, mutual mentors. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Okay. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Anyway. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Wonderful. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So Then you went with another podcast guest of mine, our friend Sean Caldwell. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:18] Speaker A: You worked with Sean. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Yes, but I was. Sean was running out the development. [00:26:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:23] Speaker B: And so I was in. [00:26:25] Speaker A: You're on the acquisition side. [00:26:27] Speaker B: Yes. Although we had the great pleasure of working together on an act dev, which was a wonderful experience. An asset in Columbia pike at 1970s high rise with an existing parking structure that offered density. So we worked together very closely on kind of a more unusual project. But that was. That was a really cool crossover. [00:26:48] Speaker A: So, yeah, I mean, you go back from a public company then to the private equity type side, which is what they do. So that's a little bit of a different mindset. But what's interesting is that the genes are the same because they both come from the Trammel Crow. Genius. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:09] Speaker A: In the company. [00:27:10] Speaker B: Well, and in fact, the private equity fund that I've been with, Zachary Partners, also came out of Crow. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:27:16] Speaker B: I didn't realize that Experienced predecessors in different, you know, different varieties. [00:27:21] Speaker A: That's interesting. So did you find. So let's talk about that for a moment. Was there a common theme among all those three firms? And. And what did you learn from that common theme? If there was one, I would say. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Like, it's a great question. I would say that's. I'd have to. I honestly would have to think about that more. But I feel like integrity was a large part of all three of those firms, for sure. And kind of being a good. Obviously being a good partner with whoever, you know, if you have an equity partner, that was always incredibly important. And then I think also just being like a fair business person, you know, with whoever your counterpart is on the other side of whatever your transaction is. I don't know if that's. I guess I've never been at a non. Primal Grow predecessor company, so I don't know what if. If other. I don't know if other places don't have those same ethos, but I would say that would be a common thread among the three. [00:28:24] Speaker A: I think of partnership as the key word for that because that's really how Trammel himself basically built his company. So when you think back, there's a book written by. About him that talks about that. And then I've met so many people that worked with him directly, and so it's interesting to hear that, the whole philosophy of how they look at things. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:48] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Definitely a special respect for partners. [00:28:52] Speaker A: And so on that theme, did you, with regard to your own company, did you take some of those learning lessons with you of the things that you just mentioned and other things. [00:29:04] Speaker B: No, we treat everyone horribly. What are you talking about? Yeah, no, I think. I think that, like, a very. I mean, for the new company. Absolutely. Like, I would. I would definitely. I feel the same authenticity and the same. I feel like I placed a very strong measure of importance on the partnerships that we have and want to do right by our partners and be very transparent at all times. So I. I definitely think that's part of that same ethos for the new company. I think also there's just a deep respect for the residents that choose to live at our assets during points in their lives. So I think that also underscores part of how we operate, because I think when I stepped back and I realized I wanted to do something more entrepreneurially, I had to figure out, you know, the essence of what that meant. Was I just doing it to do transactions or was I. You know, I kind of had to figure out in my own head what that really looked like, I think, at a deeper level. And I think we think of ourselves as pretty strong corporate stewards. [00:30:16] Speaker A: So before we get into your company, talk about your decision making with regard to that decision. I mean, what led you to make that call? And why then and not earlier? Why couldn't you have done it right after Avalon Bay as opposed to, you know, waiting till you're at Mill Creek and had that experience? [00:30:36] Speaker B: A couple things, I think the Mill Creek experience was really important. One, to help the tool set that I was mentioning. So I felt like I just had more confidence at that point. Two, I had been working with an executive coach. [00:30:48] Speaker A: Ah, interesting. [00:30:50] Speaker B: Yes. So my dear friend Vivian Garcia Cunan, and also high school classmate of mine from Georgetown Visitation. And so I worked with her probably for. I was working with her probably for a year or two years, and in the process, kind of was reconnecting with myself and figuring out what really got me excited and what I was really passionate about. And through the process, I realized, you know, I was so lucky to be doing what I love to do, which is acquisitions. So I had figured out, like, functionally what I really enjoyed. I just had to figure out in what environment I thought I could be doing it most successfully by virtue of being most happy. And so once I started going down that path and thinking about how I could do the role more independently, that's kind of how the idea started. And then ultimately I was bouncing around business plan ideas and trying to figure out how to replicate all the resources that you have at a. At a company like a Mill Creek or at Avalon Bay. That's obviously daunting, you know, if you're just gonna go out on your own. And I, and I am generally pretty risk averse. So I just. There was a lot of thought that went into all of this before deciding to leave and start Charger. Also, I had a small daughter at the time who has a pretty strong personality and she was 2 and she just, she had no, like, no concept for like social norms or anything. And she just really did whatever, you know, she felt passionately she should do. And so that was a little, it was, it was interesting to see her and to see, you know, that she was quite liberated in this, in her little bubble that she was existing in without norms. And so I thought, you know, okay, well, let me try. I feel like I have to try and just see what happens. The idea had grown so big in my head at that point that you, you kind of just, I just couldn't resist it anymore. [00:32:57] Speaker A: So when you bought your first deal, were you still employed or did you had you resigned at that point? [00:33:01] Speaker B: I had resigned, yeah. [00:33:03] Speaker A: You already had? [00:33:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So how long, what was the interim period before you closed on your first deal? [00:33:10] Speaker B: And I mean, miraculously I had resigned in the summer and pretty immediately after resigning, the deal happened to hit the market and it was a marketed deal. But by that point I knew who my equity partner. Like, I had forged an agreement with an, with a family office, we had forged a partnership that we knew we wanted to start running opportunities together and kind of figure out what the rest of the cycle, you know, however long it would be, what we wanted to see together, what we could do in that period. [00:33:42] Speaker A: So I. Yeah, other than the coach, then that had to have been a huge impetus to have that relationship right up front, I imagine. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yes. And that was very important to me. And we had been speaking for some time, obviously, like, you know, not concretely, but just idea sharing and things like that. And so over that period of time, I was able to see that they were deploying a lot of, you know, a lot of capital and that they were quite active, which, which was important for me. [00:34:12] Speaker A: So when you met with them the first time, did you have a business plan that you put in front of them or did they say, jesse, we want to invest with you, bring a deal and we'll talk it through? Is that kind of how it went? [00:34:25] Speaker B: I mean, I literally just met them just like a normal, like a normal networking conversation with literally no idea. One of my mentors had put us in touch Together. And I really had no idea what we were going to be visiting about. And within, I think a couple months, they had sent me a term sheet to do the venture. And it took me two years to think about it. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Wow. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Because I was so out of that headspace. [00:34:48] Speaker A: Two years. [00:34:49] Speaker B: Two years, yeah. So I wasn't. I wasn't. I was not focused on that. I didn't. When I met them originally, that wasn't my idea at all. [00:34:59] Speaker A: So you were at Mill Creek at the time? [00:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I was in Mill Creek. I would find deals. I was trying to help grow that platform. And it wasn't on my mind at all. It was just random. It was very random. And then I thought, this is so odd. Like, what. What am I supposed to do with this term sheet? I don't even. [00:35:15] Speaker A: I wonder what stimulated them to do that. Just out of curiosity, do you ever look back and think that through as to why or not it was something about you that said, I think she can do it? [00:35:27] Speaker B: I mean, I guess. Yeah. No, I don't know the answer because I really had no personal track. I mean, I had no personal track record. I know. [00:35:34] Speaker A: That's my. Because that is unusual. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:37] Speaker A: I mean, you're asking. They're not asking you. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:41] Speaker A: So that's a little different. [00:35:42] Speaker B: I know that they. The mentor. My mentor who introduced us, Grace Hoobscher, to which I owe a lot for the introduction. Clearly, I'm very grateful for. She had had a prior venture with. And it had gone very well. So that was. I'm sure I was riding on the coattails of those successes as well. [00:36:03] Speaker A: That's interesting. You still have that relationship with that family office. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. Yes, that's great. So they've been a backbone for you. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:36:14] Speaker A: Basically. That's nice. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Yes. They have been a partner on most of our deals. Yes. [00:36:20] Speaker A: That's great. Great. So your first deal was in Lexington Park, Maryland, which is down near the Pex river base. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:31] Speaker A: So I've been down there once, actually. Camped there. [00:36:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Watch the Blue Angels there. It was kind of. It was cool, actually. Yeah. A long time ago. But it's an interesting market. It's dominated by the military there. [00:36:46] Speaker B: Pretty much, yes. [00:36:49] Speaker A: So is that what, 80% of your occupancy there is your. Is military? [00:36:53] Speaker B: Typically, I don't think. I think it's probably more like direct military after BRAC has been reduced. So it is. It's a lot of contractors. Defense contractors, I think direct military may be like less than 10%, but contractors probably 30%, 40% and then just other, you know, other members of the community. [00:37:15] Speaker A: So how'd that deal come to you? [00:37:17] Speaker B: Well, it was marketed. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Oh, you said it was a broker. [00:37:19] Speaker B: I mean, it was, it was marketed and I guess, you know, late summer of 2018 and it was priced, which is so unusual. It came out with a price which is not common now. [00:37:30] Speaker A: No, right. [00:37:30] Speaker B: It was, in retrospect, it was priced at 250 basis points over debt, which is incredibly deep positive leverage. [00:37:39] Speaker A: In retrospect, that's a fall off the log deal. [00:37:43] Speaker B: I don't think at the time it didn't. It seemed more, I think, maybe more normal. I mean, there was definitely some premium baked in, given the location being more. [00:37:52] Speaker A: So what was your cash on cash return when you did your numbers on it then? [00:37:57] Speaker B: I mean, it fit the box. Double digit, definitely high single. Yeah. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. But so you're, you're private equity guys, like, whoa, okay, here we go. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So. And it was though, it was not the, I mean, it was, it was just everything all had to come together at once to get the deal done. So it came with all the things you would expect. Going through a JV for the first time with a new partner and, you know, showing them how we like how we run a diligence and, and just making sure everyone's on the same page. So it was not the easiest. [00:38:34] Speaker A: But this wasn't your first rodeo, right? [00:38:36] Speaker B: But it was our first rodeo together. Yes. [00:38:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I get it. But they knew your background. My God, you'd been doing it for 15 years probably or more. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think we, but I wanted to show them, you know, we were strong and that we could do a good job. So it was not without stress, but we got it done. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure. Yeah, every deal has stress. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Yes, of course. So let's asset. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. Let's shift now to your company and team dynamics a little bit. How do you define the firm's investment. [00:39:11] Speaker B: Philosophy and approach generally? I mean, because this family has been our major investor, we are together looking for higher yielding assets. And that has pretty much been the thesis. So whereas others have a box that includes vintage and location parameters and tactical strategies. We enjoy being agnostic on all three of those. Which, which is, which was very like liberating. I mean, it's, it's wonderful where you can kind of just float and gravitate to where they, where you see inefficiencies in pricing. And that has meant that sometimes we've bought merchant build deals brand new, like Newer construction and other times we've bought much older assets. By and large, the portfolio is in secondary and tertiary locations. The average vintage is roughly 1988, but spans from 1950s to 2019 now. So a pretty broad range of vintage and like high level. I would say the constants across the assets generally is some level of physical improvement usually in the interiors. Probably like $10,000 a door. And also like I've mentioned before, operational rigor. So those are the two, you know, those have been the two major themes. But you know, we've been focused on buying existing acquisitions that are stabilized. So we haven't, we've been very. [00:40:36] Speaker A: We haven't had major lease ups. [00:40:38] Speaker B: No. Yeah. No details, no forward purchases. No, no lease ups. So it's been, it's been like a, you know, it's been tight in terms of that focus. [00:40:48] Speaker A: It's interesting because I think back at your prior firms where you are, I mean Mill Creek was a mix of development and acquisitions, value add to some extent. Maybe took a little bit more risk on leasing and things like that up front. But they wanted higher quality assets I think than what you're talking about. More of the class A stuff as well as Avalon is definitely class A. So you're talking or trophy. So you're, you're at the top of the market there, asset quality. But so you're looking at a different asset quality protect and a different geography. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:24] Speaker A: As well. [00:41:25] Speaker B: When we were at Avalon, we were doing acquisitions of older assets for their. Mostly for the a brand called Avalon Eves. And so we had like, I would say we had generally we had bounced around a bit on vintage. Probably 1970s was the oldest that we'd looked at, although there may have been one or two even older. So when we were deploying capital to the fund, I could see that it was a very life. I would say that the caliber of the locations were always very high, even if they may have been older on vintage. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Whereas. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean you're not doing tertiary markets with that. [00:41:58] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. Those were the constants. [00:42:01] Speaker A: Right. And they, you know, because of scale, they probably varied more on the age than they did on the location. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:42:10] Speaker A: As far as building their portfolio. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. [00:42:14] Speaker A: So you're looking more at geography, their diversification as well as age and quality asset. [00:42:22] Speaker B: But that's right. [00:42:23] Speaker A: You know, you're not going to do C assets and you're not doing affordable housing. Sounds like. So you're focused on market rate housing in secondary and tertiary markets. Primarily. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. But you know, we do tend to gravitate towards obviously like rent to income ratios and incomes in the areas are important to us. So when we go into pockets, they generally. We are wanting them to have like generally higher levels of income. And when we're buying older assets, that provides for somewhat naturally occurring affordable housing. When you look at the AMI percentage. So in fact, our portfolio now sizes to 75% AMI. So it is kind of de facto workforce housing. [00:43:05] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:43:05] Speaker B: More or less by virtue of the vintage. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Yeah, but you're in exurban markets primarily. If you're in the urban area of any sort, like Lexington park, for instance. I call that exorbitant. [00:43:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:17] Speaker A: As is Waldorf. I think you're in Waldorf as well. That's an exorbitant market. And it's not like you're inside the beltway or something. [00:43:24] Speaker B: That's right. [00:43:25] Speaker A: I doubt you're ever gonna look there unless prices get really attractive. Although FCP did it when Prince George's county was a little different market and they were doing it there, but. And they got value there, but it's kind of hard to do it in Northern Virginia. [00:43:44] Speaker B: We pretty much need to get yield by moving a little bit further out. Definitely. [00:43:48] Speaker A: Charlottesville is an example, I guess. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So but in terms of our approach, I mean, currently we're really focused on remaining climate resilient. So we current. Our current portfolio hugs the eastern side of the Appalachians from Virginia to Massachusetts with our pocket in. In the more southern Maryland area. So we want to continue to not experience wind or water events. That's important to us. We've been lucky to be with carriers that have not experienced large losses. So our average insurance per unit right now is 450A door. It was 350A door last year. So that's enjoyable to not, you know, to be able to sleep at night and hopefully worry about fewer climate events. [00:44:37] Speaker A: And then you wouldn't have thought that western North Carolina was going to suffer a climate event. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Yes, yes. It's hard to underwrite everywhere these days. [00:44:49] Speaker A: I mean, Asheville would have thought. Right? [00:44:51] Speaker B: I know. So bad. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Is that a market you looked at or. [00:44:55] Speaker B: We would love to. We would love to buy in Asheville. We've looked there. [00:44:59] Speaker A: But I'm sure now it's a bargain. [00:45:02] Speaker B: I don't know. I haven't circled back, to be honest. Yeah. But some of those, you know, we are in. When you look back at what we have now, there is a theme, a loose theme going through of college towns where we enjoy EDS and Usually meds and sometimes some Fed if it's like a county seat with government presence. So we, we've been able to, we've been enjoying those experiences in the markets where we are. They tend to have rents that don't. That where there's. There tends to be very little new supply because the rents, you know, the new construction costs can't be borne by the existing rents. So the pockets we're in tend to be relatively stable and we find we're able to get pricing power kind of like within those systems, if you will. So that's, that's a loose theme as well. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Interesting. So what's been the most challenging part of building Charger Ventures. [00:45:58] Speaker B: Probably the last two years? I mean, hitting this pocket, hitting this bubble in the capital markets and figuring out how to continue to grow amidst this capital markets, kind of. [00:46:11] Speaker A: So it's slowed down, your acquisitions? [00:46:12] Speaker B: Yes, it has, yeah. [00:46:16] Speaker A: What about asset management? Is that stayed pretty solid through that period? [00:46:21] Speaker B: I think it has. Covid in the COVID of course at the time was an operational like highly concerning for obvious reasons and all trying to figure out how to operate in this new dynamic. But in retrospect, I mean, especially given all the surplus, I mean, and the rent bubble that came from it, that was kind of a boon actually, and the most rewarding. I mean, I get to do what I love every day. So that's pretty good. And the wins that we've had are, are very, you know, fulfilling as well. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Perhaps finding your equity partner too is a big one. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:47:02] Speaker A: Yeah. That would have helped. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:06] Speaker A: So what differentiates you in this current landscape? You already mentioned a couple things, but get into a little more depth on that. If you can say with regard to your compare, you know, the off market strategy and some of the things that you've been able to kind of engineer. [00:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Since you've had this entrepreneurial thing, I. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Mean, I, I would say we were really lucky or whatever the right words are to use all fixed rate debt coming through the cycle. So it's a. We have dry powder in terms of resources and capacity because we really aren't dealing with any problem children from a debt side right now. So I think, I think no recourse. [00:47:50] Speaker A: On any of your notes, I assume. [00:47:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:53] Speaker B: And no floating rate exposure. So that's been. I think we just, I think, I think we're just pretty disciplined in how we look at our acquisitions. We look at them all the exact same way and we use the same market research, we use the same approach. We haven't we didn't. We don't really flex in terms of the underwriting, which to some may seem very conservative and has probably played into the fact that we haven't been able to grow as fast as we would like, but it meant that we didn't buy anything in 22, like at all, for instance. And so hopefully those, hopefully just the fact that we're just going to keep doing what we're doing, basically because it seems to have kept us out of trouble so far and help has helped steer us towards opportunities that have been successful. So part of that is, I mean, the off market is really just a matter of how to manage resources. I think it was very, it's disheartening. It was very disheartening when people were having multiple best and final rounds, when the market was hyper liquid and we would lose by a couple dollars and we'd already invested all that time and, you know, done all these questionnaires. So the off market, I think was just a kind of a realization that we needed to be more efficient with our time, frankly. And then in terms of the rigor of the underwriting, we just, for better or worse are probably, we just, we just don't really deviate from it. High level. [00:49:16] Speaker A: So you won't, you won't go into an auction situation at all. You just say, this is it, that's the lid, we're done. [00:49:23] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Okay. Yep. [00:49:26] Speaker B: So I don't know if I'm lazy by not doing that or not, but especially the auctions have been fairly depressed in the last year. So I could, I could argue that that was the wrong approach over the last year. But that's, but you don't. [00:49:39] Speaker A: Wall street analysts saying you got to close deals, you know. Right. So you have a private equity partner that's friendly, willing, patient, long term perspective. It's a big asset. Yeah, it's a huge asset. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:49:59] Speaker A: I mean, for anybody in your shoes, as good as it gets. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Their cost of capital is irritatingly high. So there is nothing, maybe it's ever perfectly perfect. [00:50:09] Speaker A: All right, I'm going to share a personal experience now about irritatingly high cost of capital. My second job was with Koch Industries. Koch in Wichita, Kansas, the second largest privately owned company. Guess what their internal rate of return hurdle was for deals. If you know what their business is, they're in the oil and gas business and agriculture, land. So just take a gander what that was. Try 40. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Are you serious? [00:50:44] Speaker A: I'm serious. 40. [00:50:46] Speaker B: 40. [00:50:47] Speaker A: 40. But this was 1980, so interest rates were a little different in 1980, of course. [00:50:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:50:56] Speaker A: But even so today it's probably still 30 some. [00:51:00] Speaker B: Wow. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Yeah, because they, you know, they'll throw a hundred holes in the ground and expect one or two to hit. So it's that mentality. Yeah, they're wildcatters. I mean, that's the roots of the company. And then of course, they're much broader now and bigger and do a lot of different things and have huge tiers, difference of investment strategies. But that was the mindset for what we were doing at the time. [00:51:33] Speaker B: So it was hard. Right? [00:51:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So it appears early on in your venture and I guess it was a couple years in, according to your timeline, you decided to start an operating company. So talk about the evolution of that thought process. And did that come from your experience with Avalon Bay? [00:51:54] Speaker B: And sure, so we didn't start an operating company, but we did start a brand that we rolled out a brand. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Oh, I see. [00:52:00] Speaker B: The Spark Living brand in the fall of 2020. [00:52:03] Speaker A: Where did that idea come from? [00:52:04] Speaker B: It definitely came from my experiences at Mill Creek and Avalon Bay, you know, so I think I was just cut from that cloth that it made sense to have a brand so that it would standardize collateral, standardize, you know, when you were acquiring a new asset it was, you know exactly what to order and it just mean that you weren't reinventing the wheel. So there was a, there was an efficiency play there for sure. I think while those companies probably enjoyed sharing traffic among their branded assets, we don't. That was less important or less relevant for us. I don't think we're sharing traffic between our disparate locations. But it was also important for us to, to develop, I felt, and deliver some a consumer facing brand. So it was important to me to separate Charger from the experience that our residents were having. So keeping them separate, I think is something that continues to be important to me. And I wanted to have a differentiated apartment community brand that told more of a story. So the mission of Spark Living is to improve the lives of those that pass through our doors, which includes all of our stakeholders, whether it's investor partners, property management team members and partners, obviously the residents or the broader community in which our assets are located. And we intend to spark joy, equity, efficiency and trust all in the hopes of sparking greatness. So those are kind of the tenants and the mission that, that guide a lot of what we do. We developed a training manual, but we don't actually manage the asset. So we use different property management partners to help live the brand out From a white label perspective, two thoughts came. [00:53:53] Speaker A: To mind with that name. One is, you like the electrical theme. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:00] Speaker A: And the second is you're probably a Marie Kondo fan as well. [00:54:05] Speaker B: I do like that. Yeah. [00:54:09] Speaker A: Spark. Joy. [00:54:10] Speaker B: I know it's you. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Okay. All right. [00:54:13] Speaker B: I think we rolled out around the same time, but I would have to check that. [00:54:18] Speaker A: That's interesting. So you were operating for about four years at that point when you started this brand. So what. What? Why. Why did it take so long? [00:54:28] Speaker B: It was about two years. So. [00:54:29] Speaker A: Two years. Oh, okay. [00:54:31] Speaker B: So we. I think we probably had to rebrand three or four assets. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:54:36] Speaker B: But otherwise, everything else immediately came in as a spark asset. [00:54:40] Speaker A: Did you hire somebody? I mean, is that the time when you brought in your partner? [00:54:45] Speaker B: We. I mean, we brought in a creative consultant. Oh, you did build the brand. Yes. [00:54:51] Speaker A: Was your partner on board at that point? [00:54:53] Speaker B: They were. They were supportive and. [00:54:55] Speaker A: No, I'm talking about your personal partner within your company. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Oh, within the company. Well, Lindsay, who runs asset management, started with Charger from the beginning. [00:55:05] Speaker A: Oh, from the beginning. Oh, okay. All right. [00:55:07] Speaker B: And she and I had been at Avalon together as well. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:55:11] Speaker B: So I think that concept was also familiar, but I will give our equity partners credit that they also got behind it, and there was obviously capital investment and time investment involved. But I think we also were trying to make the case that if we. If we offered a healthy and sticky consumer story, that it could help drive retention higher, which in turn would reduce marketing dollars, turnover dollars, and potentially payroll. So, I mean, there was a business thesis that went along with the brand rollout as well. [00:55:44] Speaker A: So I assume that you hired different property managers in different markets. Is that correct? [00:55:49] Speaker B: Yes. [00:55:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And so you basically, when you interview with them and hire them, say, okay, well, this is our brand standards and this is how we do it and fall in line, basically. [00:56:02] Speaker B: But we asked. Yeah, we. We want to make sure they're open to that idea. [00:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I assume so. Interesting. That's cool. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's been. It's. It's like we. In fact, this year, we are reexamining the brand. It's five years old. And one of our initiatives this year is to reexamine the, like, strength of the brand, the health of the brand, and to see how everyone feels about the brand, from our residents to our team members. So we are just now in this quarter, throughout the course of the year, we'll be going through an exercise to measure the strength of the brand to determine where we need to improve the strength of it. And Then how to enact that going forward and then we'll retest again this time next year to see. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Have you brought the property managers together to have a kind of a thesis idea or at least get their ideas on. On that, what you just said? [00:56:54] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, we have a survey out right now across all the. All the members of every team to try to gauge and bench. [00:57:02] Speaker A: But you physically haven't got. You ever physically got them all together in one place or not? [00:57:06] Speaker B: Virtually. Virtually. We do that once or twice a year. But we also have like compensation structures scaffolded to help drive the strength of the brand. So where we feel there are really important metrics to the brand to drive operational greatness, we also have compensation structures quarterly and annually that are overlays on top of whatever the existing management companies already do. Because we want to reward team members that are living the values that we think are really important. And then we want to celebrate the teams that collectively are working toward those metrics. So we call those the Spark, our Spark Living Awards. [00:57:49] Speaker A: So if you're a resident there at one of those, in one of your properties, why would you feel differently than you would at an Avalon Bay property or at a Mill Creek property or another asset? What do you offer that they may not offer the study creost? [00:58:04] Speaker B: Well, those are also wonderful brands, of course. Those are wonderful companies that offer wonderful brands. I should say. I think we are just. I would like to think that it's in. I mean it all comes down to our team members that our residents are interfacing with. So it's all about how bought in they are to our brand. But for each of the values, we have protocols lined out in order to how that would be executed on the ground. So it's everything from our. What you may see as a resident or a prospect would be that our team members all have the same dress code, which is on purpose a bit informal. So it's jeans and a white shirt. And you may notice that our office team members wear pink socks and that they have name tags that say, you know what, like this value sparks. Like what gets me excited is this value. That value gets me excited with our logo, which is meant to be a conversation starter. And then in the. If you're calling the office, you'll. We have a different, you know, somewhat differentiate. Like it's. It's a beautiful day at Spark xyz we have scripts that are written out for various circumstances that hopefully are somewhat differentiated. And then, you know, I mean, we really have to give credit to our Managers because they're the ones on the ground every day living the brand with the residents and the prospects. But in terms of sparking trust, you know, it's really important to us that when we, when our management, when our maintenance team say they're going to do something, that they do it right the first time. Sparking efficiency. We've been exploring and we are currently using variety of technologies that make everything more efficient for our team members and for our residents. Spark equity. You know, we do annual unconscious bias training. We have specific words that we would prefer to be using that are like. That are just more thoughtful. I would say our floor plans are all verbs. They're action words. So that was an intentional choice. So I would say there's just a lot of intentionality that has gone behind. You know, the collateral and the verbiage that we use just in general operating conditions. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Is this through consultants or your own ideas? [01:00:08] Speaker B: I mean, I definitely. The consultant we worked with was awesome and really helped to develop some of the original ideas. So I would say collaboration for sure. [01:00:17] Speaker A: That's great. I looked at the websites of both Charger Ventures and Spartan. Notice no cross reference to each platform nor any bios of you or your colleagues. Curious if this is on purpose and why. [01:00:33] Speaker B: I think it was intentional. We definitely do want to keep the brands diff. The brands are different and they serve different audiences. So that's intentionally having no crossover. The Charger Ventures brand is, you know, I mean, Charger will go for the jugular to get the best return for our investors. That doesn't resonate as well with our prospects for obvious reasons. That is the essence of why they had to be separate in terms of the bios. I mean, I just. On the Charger website, we can't have a map with our Spark assets for the reason I just mentioned. And I also think it served us well. We were under contract on an asset in 2021 that unfortunately entered into system litigation and resulted in actually some protests that I thought it was really beneficial at that time that there was no crossover between Charger and Spark. So, you know, our residents weren't impacted at all by the noise. [01:01:28] Speaker A: I figured there was a reason because both prior employers have everything under one platform typically, except maybe a property asset website for each one. But you look at Avalon Bay and everything's under one one roof there in essence. [01:01:45] Speaker B: Right. [01:01:47] Speaker A: And I assume from a public standpoint they have to do that. [01:01:51] Speaker B: Probably, yeah. [01:01:54] Speaker A: But I was just wondering what the origin of that thought process was and then keep explained it. Well, thank you sure, that's good. So what strategies do you employ for foster collaboration and innovation in your team? [01:02:09] Speaker B: I would say that we have a strong focus on getting lots of inclusive viewpoints. So that's something that's important to us and we want to make sure we. We just. We're always soliciting new ideas. So whether that's on the Charger team or within the Spark portfolio, we are always encouraging our team members on the ground to tell us what can be done better, faster, more efficiently, whatever the case is, we compensate, actually for that because we really want to encourage idea sharing. And if it can be shared across the portfolio, then that's like an even, you know, bigger bonus, if you will, because. And it's. I mean, there's been many examples where one manager comes up with an idea and then it's almost immediately expanded throughout the portfolio. So I'd like to think that we're pretty nimble. We like to think that we are also, we're very open to vetting new technologies where we think they make sense, testing them and then rolling them out, you know, on the bigger platform. So I think it's just a. It's like just a constant curiosity for what we can do better and seeing, you know, the best, the best impact, the biggest impact that new ideas can have. Definitely an appreciation. We, like, I don't know. I think we just know we all have blind spots and that having other people see them can only make us better. [01:03:29] Speaker A: Well, at this point, I don't think you've done a joint venture with another operator that I'm aware of, except someone who I know quite well, who's on my board, and I've known her for 20 years. And I understand that you've brought my friend Lauren Jesnicki in as a partner on one of your transactions. Talk about that deal a little bit and why that happened. [01:03:56] Speaker B: We actually, we are a joint venture partner with another operating company. [01:03:59] Speaker A: Oh, you are? [01:03:59] Speaker B: Another deal. But that's been. It's a little bit of a different. The way we structured that was a little different. But, yeah, we are super excited to have. Be working with Lauren on one of our assets, an asset in Massachusetts that we acquired in 2019. It's one building on 17 acres. So since I first visited the asset in 2019, every time I go, it occurs to me that there's way too much land and additional density there, and what can we do about it? So this year we. We've really started to invest in. Over the, like, over the last couple of years, we've just been setting aside, you know, funds to make sure that we can pursue what the potential could be. [01:04:38] Speaker A: And so how did you find Lauren or. [01:04:40] Speaker B: Lauren and I just. I think we. We've known each. I. We. Well, her husband and I went to college together. [01:04:46] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And then when she lived in D.C. and was with the Zuto, you know, we knew of each other and. Or met each other then. But definitely by the time she was up in Boston and I was doing deals in Boston, we had connected them as well. So for this, for this project and this initiative, it became clear we needed a local operating a local development partner to help us, you know, figure out what we could do. And so that's. [01:05:10] Speaker A: So this was your first development deal, basically. [01:05:13] Speaker B: This would be our first development deal. Yes. This would be an activ. So that's exciting. We would welcome other collaborations, but this one is a. Has been an exciting first one is your partner. [01:05:26] Speaker A: How are you recap. Are you going to recapitalize the existing property or are you going to separate the parcels and do a fresh financing for that? Just out of curiosity. [01:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. It seems like the execution that we're most interested in right now would be not subdividing the property and perhaps pursuing a HUD execution. So we would refinance the 21D4 for the whole thing. I can't remember the right letters or numbers. [01:05:50] Speaker A: Yes, I was a mortgage banker for 25 years. [01:05:54] Speaker B: So it would enable us not to have to subdivide, which would be great. We could. Ideally we would pull out some equity from the first and use that as our co investment or our. Use that as our equity to develop the new. The new assets. So the existing asset is 112 units. The new development looks like it could be about 40 or 50 units, which I think is helpful to make the total deal size more institutional. [01:06:20] Speaker A: That's cool. [01:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:23] Speaker A: So the multifamily investment market has evolved even since you started your firm due to the pandemic and capital markets bakeries, as we talked about earlier. Have you interpreted the market strategically to address these challenges? How have you. [01:06:40] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I definitely think the market changed since we started. I think what I felt most were two things. I mean, we are mostly secondary tertiary and I felt a lot of investors move into those spaces chasing Covid growth. So that was one pressure we felt. But also the rise of syndicators made our, you know, like the pockets where we focus more crowded. For sure. Going forward, what we're feeling now in the market is kind of a retrenchment to primary markets of newer and newer vintage assets. So I do think that whereas there used to be no risk premiums or location or vintage, we're starting to definitely see that reemerge. And hopefully there's less competition as people, you know, either as syndicators are challenged and tied up with, you know, perhaps prior investments. So between the two, where we hope to, we're kind of just doubling down on our original strategy. [01:07:37] Speaker A: So in light of the increase in both interest rates and construction costs, how have you seen the valuations of your current assets holding up? Have you been able to keep high occupancies throughout? [01:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think that's kind of two questions. So the fundamentals have been very strong despite the market malaise otherwise in the capital markets. So fundamentals really, I mean, there'll be ebbs and flows. There was like a weird funk in the fall of 24 where household formation or demand kind of fell off before and around the election as the case was. I don't know if that was related or not, but we did feel pockets of weakness in the fundamentals as we tried to become very full ahead of winter. But heading into the spring now, most all of the assets have firmed up. So that's really important as we head into the big turn season. And then on the like on the valuation side, I mean, of course higher interest rates, you know, impact all assets the same way inversely with value. But we've been, you know, we're lucky to have all fixed rate debt that we haven't had to explore. [01:08:44] Speaker A: You don't have to recap anything. [01:08:46] Speaker B: We haven't. We did well last year we did two refinances actually. We refinanced a 21 fault. Were both fall 21 acquisitions. One, we refinanced with new debt and were able to pull 15% of the equity out. So that was a win. And it was. We had acquired the asset with debt in place and ultimately the new debt was a lower cost. So that was a win. And then the second refinance in late fall was a full cash out refi and that had also been a fall 21 vintage. So those were both actually good success refinance stories. We're currently pulling a supplemental out on a 2020 vintage asset and we'll return equity entirely on that deal. So I mean that rate doesn't feel great. But on a blended basis for a 2022 deal, the blended rate is attractive. So I would say yeah, I mean it's kind of, I guess we were Lucky to peg some of those rates on down days or when the rates were a little lower, I should say. [01:09:56] Speaker A: So you mentioned this a little earlier, but I'm going to bring it up again. Affordable housing continues to be an important need in the urban markets because of where you invest and the markets where your rents may be lower than more urban markets. You think you are addressing this affordability issue with your tenants? [01:10:16] Speaker B: Well, we do focus on market weight housing and we do represent the needs of our investors. Having said that, we are also, by virtue of where our rents sit, considered naturally occurring for the most part. We have also taken advantage of a couple of programs in locations where we are, where we have self obligated affordability. So we've actually said for a certain percentage of the units we will make sure that we don't push the rents beyond a certain threshold. So I would say, you know, we try to be conscious of programs like that in different municipalities and it's kind of a win win because the residents for the restricted units are protected and often there's another incentive, you know, tied to it for the performance of the asset. So it can. So we're always open to dynamics like that. [01:11:12] Speaker A: That's great. As your strategy matures, what new opportunities do you see now on the horizon at this point? [01:11:19] Speaker B: I mean I am definitely curious about more activities like the one that we're working on with Lauren. We have another asset that we have just identified potentially additional density on as well that we're trying to explore there. And actually just this quarter last month worked really hard on an rfp. So another, a potential new partnership with another development company or what would be a pretty good pipeline of new development going forward. So obviously we're not bringing the development expertise but our potential partner is. We're bringing other aspects that are important to the deal. [01:11:54] Speaker A: So it's interesting that the economics now are starting to work for development, which is interesting. [01:12:00] Speaker B: We will see if it works. But yeah, I'm, we're hopeful. [01:12:06] Speaker A: Okay. [01:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:08] Speaker A: So you're betting on rates coming down a little bit more on the floating side. [01:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah. The particular, the, it's, it's. The structure will have to. The structural will reflect market conditions. When we are able to sharpen our pencils and figure out if it's, if it really makes sense, I mean if. [01:12:24] Speaker A: It'S depending on scale, if it's a big enough deal, you can go sit down with a couple of life companies that do fixed rate construction, permanent loans. So that program is out there. Yes, but those assets have to be pretty Pristine. And they also have to be in pretty, you know, urban markets typically. Yeah, you're not going to do it in, you know, Lexington, Kentucky, let's say someplace like that. [01:12:52] Speaker B: So I would say just generally areas for growth. Those would be ones that we would be like to explore potentially. And then just, I think we're just open to collaboration and to see what new, new growth avenues there could be. [01:13:07] Speaker A: In the realm of capital markets and deal structuring. What innovative financing strategies, if any, have you implemented. [01:13:13] Speaker B: Generally we are agency borrowers, so there's only so much creative, you know, innovation that can go into those structures. But where it makes sense. We are happy to. [01:13:23] Speaker A: Have you done any MES or private preferred equity at all? No, no. Okay, okay. No need for that. [01:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think we've just been resistant to additional leverage. That's kind of one of our guide rails. We don't cross over to do that. [01:13:41] Speaker A: But have you done any secondary, should I say seller finance deals where you've gotten help from your seller? No, none of that. [01:13:48] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [01:13:50] Speaker A: Okay. Are there any specific partnerships or collaborations with financial institutions that you believe have been pivotal to your success other than your backbone equity partner? [01:14:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I think backbone equity and then the mother's milk of multifamily, which is the agencies. Okay, yeah, those are the, those are the two pillars. [01:14:09] Speaker A: So really no other, no other financial partners at this point? [01:14:13] Speaker B: Well, I mean we have other equity partners who we are also very grateful for and look forward to growing relationships with, but. [01:14:19] Speaker A: Oh good. [01:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah. But on the, on the debt side. [01:14:23] Speaker A: Just Fanny and Freddie. [01:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I would say like what I was just talking about in terms of self obligating affordability, you know, so working with the counties where we're located. Of course, those too. [01:14:35] Speaker A: And if they offer initiatives, tax incentives maybe. [01:14:38] Speaker B: Tax incentives, yes. Or we've received a lot of green investment money as well. [01:14:44] Speaker A: Interesting. That's helpful. As your portfolio grows, have you considered any aggregation strategies such as a fund or strategic equity partnership? One off equity raises for acquisitions can be taxing, as you probably know now. But however, you do have that common theme of one partner. So you've got joint venture documents already set, right? [01:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So executing with our existing partners is definitely important to us because we have the documents. But I think, you know, and, and for assets, for partners where we have multiple assets together, then we could explore exiting them together the next time there's hyper liquidity, whenever that is. [01:15:33] Speaker A: But as far as aggregation, there's really no thought for that at this point. You Want to keep each deal separately? [01:15:39] Speaker B: Yes. [01:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, there's a way to structure that where you could have it aggregate in some respects, but have the ability to plug and play with the assets too. But it depends on the scale long term as to how big your company wants to get and what you want to do with it. [01:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for aggregation we would be happy to do strategic initiatives with a couple or a couple partners with different strategies. That would make sense, but those would be more or less separate account initiatives. [01:16:12] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's a couple of firms out there that do these corporate level financings that allow for lower cost of capital than you could typically get and probably lower than what your partners are willing to offer you. So you could probably, as a company do quite well with those kinds of opportunities. [01:16:34] Speaker B: We could also look into the secondary market. We could roll some of the existing assets in with a potential new partner who could help us grow in the next phase. So that's exactly a strategy we've thought about. I just not sure the valuations are where we would want them to be at the moment, perhaps. [01:16:50] Speaker A: So one of my other podcast guests, Daniel Klein, formed a partnership with a group called Almanac and they invest in his company. [01:16:58] Speaker B: Okay. [01:16:59] Speaker A: Give him a, basically an equity line of credit for him to go out and buy new assets with it, which is kind of a nice situation. Yeah, right. [01:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah, that is. [01:17:09] Speaker A: It's an interesting strategic partnership for them. And so it's a different structure than asset by asset. So it's a little more, you know, looking all the way at the matrix through the company. [01:17:23] Speaker B: Right. [01:17:23] Speaker A: Basically. So it's something to think about until you have only acquired. Until now you've only acquired existing properties. I understand. Oh, we talked about this already. So we talked about Lauren and that. So we'll move on. Would you be looking for development opportunities in the future? And that. You've already answered that. So sounds like you're going to. But I would assume with partners going to be conservative with it, you're not going to be too ambitious. [01:17:54] Speaker B: Yes, I don't have the patience to do development, so it would require a partner that does. [01:18:01] Speaker A: So how would you play on that? I mean, would you come in and say, okay, we'll be the spark at the end of the day for the asset management piece. [01:18:10] Speaker B: Yes. [01:18:11] Speaker A: You guys do the, the heavy lifting basically of the construction. [01:18:16] Speaker B: I mean, it all depends on what, what the needs of the project are and what's important. But in the example for the RFP we, we recently worked on, you know, it was important that we already had a local presence. The development partner did not. It was important that we would. They would develop the deal, we would asset manage it. We were able to lend our minority status, which was important for purposes of the rfp. [01:18:40] Speaker A: Ah, okay. And then the equity you would be shouldering, a big part of that then as far as the. [01:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think we would be working in tandem to make sure we could get it capitalized. [01:18:55] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. So reflecting on your career, what pivotal moments or decisions significantly impacted your professional development? [01:19:06] Speaker B: I think, you know, I would say the move from Avalon to Mill Creek was pretty. I mean, it was a wonderful place to work at Avalon, and it was hard to leave, but I was able to learn, you know, some new skills that turned out to be pretty important in order to ultimately launch Charger. So that was a. That was an important step for sure. And then, I think, you know, most recently, promoting my partner, Lindsay, to partner status was, you know, a great acknowledgment of her contribution to the company so far and an investment in the future together. So those. Those have been good decisions. [01:19:52] Speaker A: So you post a little bit about being, you know, a woman in the business. In our business, there aren't many. You and Lauren are pretty unusual, actually, being independent ladies doing your own operating companies. Talk about your commitment to the inclusive thought process as a generator for better returns. [01:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think I touched on it a little earlier, but that's just in our DNA. You know, we just think that having more ideas versus like a more of a. Yeah, we just think more ideas will help help us think through blind spots and identify opportunities to help provide better returns. [01:20:36] Speaker A: One observation I'll make based on what you've said is that there might be more of a hospitality mindset to your thinking. Is that part of what you're thinking from, you know, being a hostess, being more of, you know, bringing people in and that from that perspective, I'm seeing that more and more with. With the multifamily business, much more so than ever was before. This whole feeling of being like. More like a hotel, and the experience of greeting your guests, in essence, treating them as guests as opposed to tenants, you know, it's kind of a little different. A mindset? Is that part of what your thinking is? [01:21:17] Speaker B: I mean, I'm not sure if, you know, it wasn't intentionally to come from a hospitality mindset person per se, but I think, like, having a real con, like a human connection is something, you know, we want to be authentic and we want all of our team members to be able to feel authentic in how they come to work every day and so that they feel comfortable sharing their ideas. And we want them to connect authentically with our tenants as well. [01:21:44] Speaker A: That's great. So as a leader, how do you build balance the demands of running a firm with the personal and professional growth? [01:21:53] Speaker B: Well, when you love what you do, it doesn't feel demanding. It just feels like fun though. I mean there's part of. It's true, but there are definitely, there definitely requires balance. I enjoy hot yoga as a way to help ground myself and clear my mind. That's important. And I, you know, I have a commitment to self care, so sleep and, and exercise in order. [01:22:20] Speaker A: You have a daughter too, right? [01:22:22] Speaker B: Yes, a daughter and a son. [01:22:23] Speaker A: Yes, and a son as well. How old are your children? [01:22:27] Speaker B: 11 and 12. So when I'm with them, I want to be able to be present with them and that is sometimes a challenge, but something that I am focused on. [01:22:39] Speaker A: So do they live with you? [01:22:41] Speaker B: Yes, they live with me most of the time. Yes. And so that just typifies that I want to be present with them when we're together. [01:22:54] Speaker A: That's great. So how do you measure success both for Charger Ventures and for yourself? [01:23:01] Speaker B: I think for myself, I just want to feel fulfilled in what I'm doing and every day enjoying what I'm. What I'm doing. So like I said, you know, buying acquisitions and, and really driving value is something that I get a lot of satisfaction from. Our Charger, I think that same concept, you know, relays that, you know, we just want to be doing by. Right by our investor partners and, and I think the passion of flows through. I do think like our, I would like to, I think our brand kind of has a soul. [01:23:37] Speaker A: So that's great. [01:23:38] Speaker B: That's an important part of it. And we want to make sure that we feed the soul, which is part of what we're going to do this year is focus on the brand, have a renewed commitment to sparking joy. You know, we are very analytical and we do ask lots of questions and we want to make sure that our team members are like that we can all, you know, like keep in mind that, you know, like, hopefully we're able to have some whimsy in, you know, amidst all the focus time. So we're going to be flexing on that value this year. [01:24:12] Speaker A: Well, listening to what you've just said, now I know why you and Lauren are on the same page because that's almost exactly the way she thinks. Almost exactly that. Because I Counseled her early on in her entrepreneurial days and we talked a little bit about why she's doing what she did and very similar to what you're doing, which is great. So what advice would you give your 25 year old self? [01:24:41] Speaker B: That's a great question. I would think I would probably just say just reconnect with yourself probably more quickly. And if I had worked with that executive coach, perhaps sooner, I would have been more connected. I mean, frankly, when I had, when I did start working with Vivian, I was pretty disconnected with my own self. I was a young mother and just was doing everything I thought was the right thing to do, but I wasn't. I kind of lost track of what I thought was important to myself to be doing. [01:25:14] Speaker A: How did she talk you into doing what you, you know, that coaching or did. Did you, did you. Was it your decision to hire her? [01:25:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No. I knew I had to work with someone. Like, I knew that I was not feeling perfectly fulfilled in all aspects. So I reached out and then she just did a great job of asking questions to try to peel back the onion and figure out what would be a better fit. [01:25:40] Speaker A: One other podcast guest of mine went into depth about her coaching experience too. Her name was Kathy Bonifay. She's was a combined properties and it was quite an experience for her as well. So it's probably a good thing to do for some people at the right place. [01:25:59] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:01] Speaker A: Can you share any mentors or role models you've influenced you, your approach to leadership in business? [01:26:09] Speaker B: I mean, I've been lucky to work with amazing mentors and I would say the ones that just, I could connect with offline, you know, whether it be on professional or personal issues where I could just ask, you know, like where I could feel comfortable, you know, explaining to them just whatever the circumstances were and where we could connect on like a deeper level and where I could solicit their feedback and counsel. So I think just, just, I mean, I've been lucky to have a lot of mentors that were willing to offer time like that. And it was, I mean, it's been at various points in my life and my career and whether it be personal challenges or professional. Yeah, just very lucky to be able to, to have really some really great resources to help kind of help me figure out what the right next step is. [01:26:59] Speaker A: Do you have an advisory board? [01:27:01] Speaker B: We do not. [01:27:03] Speaker A: Okay. My guess is that your equity partners are probably that. Yeah, I would imagine so. [01:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:13] Speaker A: Okay, so final question. If you could post a billboard on the Capitol Beltway for millions to see. What would it say? [01:27:24] Speaker B: Probably, like, start now. I don't know. Just. Just do the thing. I don't, I'm not, I'm. I'm one to take action, I think. And maybe it's just coming into the new year, but I have a renewed sense of, like, just getting after it and not really waiting for things to happen. I feel like 24 was kind of, you know, like, I, I kind of kept this in our lane and it was a little bit of round peg, square hole. And 25 is going to be a little messier and it's going to be some coloring outside the lines of what, you know, our normal, what I thought we should be doing. But with that will come green shoots and an opportunity. So we're just gonna do it. [01:28:11] Speaker A: Well, so what you, what you just said sparks me to ask one more question, even though I said it was my last one. You're one of the few, if not one of one or two, that have come to me to ask to be on. I've 99 of the time I ask people to join me. So I'm asking you why you came to me to be on the podcast. Just out of curiosity. [01:28:33] Speaker B: Well, I obviously have seen your podcast and seen the, you know, the great content that you're putting out with amazing leaders. [01:28:42] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:28:42] Speaker B: In real estate. So very, you know, in awe of what you've been doing, which is awesome. And I'd like to think that I might be able to offer some insights that were different from what you've done. [01:28:54] Speaker A: And I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. [01:28:58] Speaker B: Thank you for the opportunity. [01:28:59] Speaker A: I appreciate it very much.