Gary Cohen-Lessons from a Third-Generation Real Estate Developer (#122)

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hi, I'm John Coe and welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate, a one on one interview show highlighting the backgrounds and career trajectory of leading luminaries in the Washington D.C. area Real estate market. The purpose of the show is to highlight their backgrounds and their experiences and some interesting stories about their current business as well as their past, and to cite some things that you might take away both from educational standpoint as well as lessons learned in the industry and some amusing and sometimes interesting background stories. So I'm hoping that you will enjoy the show. Before I introduce today's guest, I'd like to share a few exciting updates, both this podcast, icons of DC area real estate and the community I founded in 2021. The iconic journey in CRE are currently part of a nonprofit organization also called the iconic journey in CRE that was formed in the middle of 2023. Since then we have secured nine corporate sponsors including Rapaport, FCP, Buzuto, JBG, Smith, Kettler, Eagle Bank, Cityline Properties, Sypharth and Lurch, early and Brewer Law Firms as well as six individual sponsors. These contributions have been instrumental in helping us grow the community and expanding our programs. I'm also pleased to announce that as of October 2024, the iconic Journey and CRE membership community has moved to a new platform called Mighty Networks. This community, which connects commercial real estate professionals between the ages of 25 and 40, has grown to 65 members and continues to expand. To learn more about this community or if you're interested in joining, please click the link in the show notes of this episode and each episode going forward. Thank you for your continued support and for listening. Thank you for joining me for another episode of Icons of D.C. area Real estate Today. My guest for the show is Gary Cohen, who is a third generation member of the Cohen family which is the founder of Wilco Construction. In this episode we'll explore the rich history of of Wilco and the evolution of the industry in Washington and Gary's personal and professional growth. The company was founded in the mid-1960s by Gary's grandfather William Cohen. Wilco Construction began with humble roots. William was a entrepreneur in the trash business and started a company called Capital Trash which grew to be the region's largest waste disposal company before selling to Waste Management, who came in in the 1970s to acquire it. He took the capital from that sale and parlayed it into various real estate investments. Part of at the time he was in the trash business. He bought a site in downtown Washington for his first development which is the Vanguard Building built in 1965 and currently it has been converted to a 163 unit apartment building which we talk about called the L apartments. Gary grew up in the real estate family. As a third generation of the family, he gained hands on experience in construction on a couple of sites we talk about and it laid the foundation for the real estate career. However, his initial thought was to get into education and he started doing that after going to college at Syracuse and then on to Pace University. But decided to shift into the real estate business up in New York City with Newmark, started in property management and construction there. Several years later his father Rich Richie called him and said come on down and join me here at Washington. So he joined the firm, but he decided instead of becoming part of Wilco, the parent company, he formed his own entity for residential development and he talks about that and started investing in small scale residential into getting into larger projects, but more in the for sale arena and condominium development. Throughout his career, Gary faced many numerous challenges from difficult contractors. He tells stories about that to navigating family dynamics. His father and uncle had a famous dispute many years ago, yet he merged successful with projects like the one I mentioned earlier, the L apartment complex 163 unit, which I actually toured with our group, the Iconic Journey and CRE right before recording this yesterday. So, looking to the future, Gary remains optimistic about urban development in Washington. He advocates for innovative solutions to revitalizing the city, emphasizing community engagement and policy. And he champions a family oriented culture valuing mentorship and continuous learning. His story underscores the importance of family legacy, strategic investments and adaptability. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Gary Cohen. So Gary Cohen, welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate. Thank you for joining me today. So you are a third generation of the Cohen family that started Wilco construction in the 1960s. Perhaps. Tell the story of your family and Wilco's history to date. As I told you, I worked with your brother Phil at Ackman Ziff and we helped your dad finance three office condominium projects in Rockville, Maryland in the early 2000s. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, Noel, thanks for having me. So, yeah. So Wilco was founded in the early 60s by my grandfather William Cohen, hence the name Wilco. And he was your, you know, typical Horatio Augur story. He came from nothing, dropped out of school in seventh grade to support his family. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Is he Native American? Is he a US citizen? [00:06:48] Speaker B: So he was born in usa. His mother came from Romania. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:53] Speaker B: And she. They ended up in D.C. via Buffalo, New York and Cleveland, really? And then. Yeah. I don't know how that whole thing happened, but they made a detour. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:09] Speaker B: And again, his father died young. He was one of nine brothers. He had one sister, and his older brother died also. So he became sort of the patriarch of the family. And he happened to be a very large person. He was tall, he was big. He had wide shoulders. So he had to go start working right away. And he went to a trash company. And at the time, well, even today, you got to be 16 years old to drive a truck. And he lied about his age. He was only 14. But he looked so, you know, so big. They hired him, and they didn't ask questions about, you know, whether, you know, let me see your id. So he worked for this trash company for many, many years in D.C. and after several years, he basically was like, look, either I'm going to work for this guy for the rest of my life, or I'm going to start my own trash company. So he decided, you know what? I'm going to start my own trash company. And he did. It was called Capital Trash. [00:08:13] Speaker A: And he grew it into friends and family that's funded it. [00:08:17] Speaker B: No, he just. No, he bought one truck and just. He had some brothers that ended up working with him. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Bootstrapped it. [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And he grew it, and he was good marketing. I think it said on the Advertisement they had 21 trash trucks and they only had four. But it made people think, oh, wow, this is a large trash company. Sure, you can do my house, you can do my office building. And he just grew it and grew and grew it, and it ended up becoming the largest waste disposal company in the area. [00:08:48] Speaker A: In the region. [00:08:49] Speaker B: In the region. And it was called Capital Trash. In fact, his offices were down by the third base of National Stadium. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Really? [00:08:58] Speaker B: That was his office. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Wow. Isn't that something? [00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah, we actually have seats right on the third baseline. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Oh, isn't that cool? [00:09:04] Speaker B: Front row, literally. [00:09:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:06] Speaker B: For that reason. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:08] Speaker A: When. [00:09:09] Speaker B: When Lerner did the stadium, my father called him and said, hey. And Lerner knows our history. And he's like, Richie, we'll make sure you get those seats. It was very interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so. So after several years, a gentleman named Wayne Huizenga. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Oh, sure. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Came to DC and approached my grandfather and said, hey, I want to buy management. I want to. Yeah, correct. And he was buying all these local trash companies, obviously, all across the country. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:37] Speaker B: And he wrote my grandfather a big check and, you know, that's. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Why. Did he not want to sell or. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Did He, I think, you know, I don't know. I'm sure part of it, he didn't. But I think at the time it was such a large check and it's coming from someone who had nothing. He was this. [00:09:59] Speaker A: In the 1960s. [00:10:01] Speaker B: This was in. No, this was. No, this was, this was like in the 50s. He started Wilco in 1962. So he started Wilco after he had all this money. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Okay, Right. Interesting. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And then with that he was able to, you know, to buy real estate. So it was a large sum of money. I don't know the exact amount and what that translates. [00:10:21] Speaker A: So why real estate at the time? [00:10:23] Speaker B: That I don't know. I would think that because my grandfather knew that, you know, you can't go wrong with buying land. And he knew that even though D.C. was a small, sleepy, quote unquote Southern town back then, he saw the potential, the government and the growth. He's. You know what, one day this is going to be a. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Well, I'm just going to throw some names out and maybe your grandfather was friends with the benders, the learners, the. Let's say, well, even the cars. I mean, you know, a lot of people building in that. In that era. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. Smith. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Charles E. Smith. Right. [00:10:59] Speaker B: You know all those guys he was in that era. His buddies, though were the Nick Antonelli's. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:05] Speaker B: The Blackie Augers and the Kingdom Goulds. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Got it. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Those were his buds. [00:11:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, he knew all those guys, but I think those were really the guys that he sort of did a lot of business. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Mel Lincoln. [00:11:16] Speaker B: You know, I'm not sure. Okay. I think Mel may be a little younger. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:20] Speaker B: I think. Actually, no, no, they probably are around the same age because his son is a little older than me, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, he knew all those guys, but, you know, those were his, his business partners. Greenie Fisher was. He owns the ll, his son and that building right there, 1275 Pennsylvania Avenue. So he had, he had those relationships. But anyway, so, yeah, so that's kind of how it started. [00:11:53] Speaker A: And the first deal. [00:11:54] Speaker B: So the first deal was a plot of land which were. Which was tenement housing. And I get. The area was very industrial back then. The area as in what you call today the golden triangle. So you had tenement housing and you also had some livestock running around. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Really? [00:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Across the street was like a scrap metal junkyard. [00:12:19] Speaker A: So it was 20th Street. [00:12:20] Speaker B: 20Th and L. Yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that, that area, the intersection but it was a residential area, so. But it also. It was like a mix of that and industrial. I also think there was a movie theater down the street as well. But anyway, it was. It was quiet. It was a very quiet little area of Washington. So he bought that and vacated the tenement housing, knocked the tenement housing down, and he signed the lease with the GSA for either Department of Labor or Treasurer or Commerce. I'm not sure. It may have been a hybrid of all three agencies in that one building, but he decided, because it was the first high rise. Well, the first office building in that part of town. So we call it the Vanguard Building. And it was there for. From 1965 up till a few years ago, when we completely was still there. The structure is still there, but it was a government, basically building, because after that, they were there for 20 years. And then Peace Corps came. They were there for about 25 years, and in between, it was the early 90s. It sat vacant for about five years. My dad just mothballed the building, and we're just hoping that something would happen. [00:13:34] Speaker A: Knowing the history of downtown Washington a little bit, the Bender Building was built about the same time at the corner of Connecticut now. [00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Which is about three, four blocks. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. That's right. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Early 1960s. [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:46] Speaker B: So. [00:13:47] Speaker A: And that's a big. That's a really big building. That's close to 800,000 square feet. So. So it's. It's interesting. Yeah, that's cool. So let's pivot from that. We'll come back to all the properties. And I thought maybe go back into your personal history a little bit, if we could. So tell us a little bit about growing up as a child of a real estate developer and grandson of a real estate developer and in a real estate family. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I grew up in Potomac, Maryland. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Sure. [00:14:18] Speaker B: I went to McLean School, and then I went to field school. And, you know, it was definitely, you know, I mean, it was a great childhood, you know. You know, I'm not gonna lie. It was privileged, you know. You know, at the time, we owned the Mayflower Hotel. My father sold that a few years ago. But, you know, it was a very. You don't realize it then, but it was. You know, I was. I was blessed. I was very lucky. Unfortunately, though, my grandfather did die young. I was only three years old. He died in 1973. But it was great living around here, good friends. I had a lot of opportunities that a lot of people my age didn't have. I got to See a lot of cool things. So, you know, it's great, great, great area. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Did you go on jobs with your dad? [00:15:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so my father, you know, his background is construction, and that's really what he, how he learned the business. And he would take me around to construction sites, or we would just be driving around D.C. and he would say, see that building, Gary? And see that? And he would show me, you know, some of the things that he, that he, that he owned. When I turned 16, my first job was construction. On. It was on School street in Silver Springs, a small office building. And I worked as a laborer, and I did that for three summers. 1275 Penn. When I was about 18 years old. That summer I had a jackhammer and I digged up the sidewalk. And it was important for my father, I think, for me to learn sort of that side of the business, because I don't think he wanted me to just learn how to, like what it feels like to get your hands dirty. But he wanted me to appreciate what I had and see that side of the world and say, hey, Gary, this is it. This is, this, this is the real world right here. These people that you're working with. And of course, he tried to hide the fact that I was his son, but it was. Everyone knew right away. I mean, look, you know, so. But everyone was great. And honestly, I have great experiences from when I was a kid, and the people that I met, you know, I mean, Pops, Callahan, Hambone, I mean, these are the guys that were real, you know, Washingtonian laborers that love my father, they love working for Wilco, and they were hard working and they taught me just sort of about, you know, just about just being a good person. [00:16:40] Speaker A: What about your brother Phil? [00:16:42] Speaker B: Phil worked there a couple years too, in construction. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:45] Speaker A: He's what, two years older? [00:16:46] Speaker B: Phil's three years. Three years older than me. Four years older than me. [00:16:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:51] Speaker B: And, yeah, Phil was always a lot more into the, honestly, the finance part of the business. [00:16:57] Speaker A: That's what he does now. [00:16:57] Speaker B: That's what he does now. He, he, he was more looked at real estate from sort of dollars and cents investments. Why I looked at real estate as creating. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Okay. [00:17:07] Speaker B: That's, that's what I enjoy. I like building, I like creating. I like, you know, having a building sort of reflect a little of who I am and, and sort of have part of my personality sort of be reflected in a building that was, that's the part of the business I still like. I like creating. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. So you went on to Syracuse Yes. Why there and what did you learn? [00:17:33] Speaker B: Well, why there? I got in okay. I was not a good student. I had to work very hard to get average grades. It runs in my family. None of us are that great in students. My brother was a good student. Phil was a good student. He takes after my mother. And Syracuse was great. I went to always McLean. Small school, field. Small school. I love sports. You know, I'm a huge. [00:17:59] Speaker A: What athlete. Were you an athlete? [00:18:01] Speaker B: I was an athlete. I played lacrosse, I played soccer, I played tennis, I played basketball. So I loved it. And I was a huge Reskin fan growing up in Bullets and Capitals and at the time, the Orioles because the NASA didn't have a team yet. And I really wanted to go to a rah rah school, but I didn't want to go to a school that was too big. So Syracuse was perfect. It was a rah rah school. And, you know, it's got about 17,000 great basketball heritage. Great basketball, the Carrier Dome and Jim Boeheim. And so that was fun. So Syracuse was a great school for me. I enjoyed it. And yeah, I. [00:18:36] Speaker A: What's your major in there? [00:18:37] Speaker B: I was. My major was psychology, and my minor was public speaking. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Well, that's interesting. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Yeah, my path was not to go into business, per se. My path. My Always loved teaching and coaching. [00:18:50] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:18:50] Speaker B: My. Yeah, I got a. I got a master's in education. So, yeah, I moved to New York, got a. Went to Pace University, got a master's in education. I thought I wanted to be a teacher and then like a principal and then, you know, a. In some way shape or form a politician. [00:19:08] Speaker A: Really? [00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker A: So you like standing up and presenting? [00:19:13] Speaker B: I do, yeah. I enjoy doing that. And I've actually had the opportunity to teach real estate classes in the area because I'm friends with some adjunct professors from GW in Georgetown, and I've gone up and I've done some classes, so I enjoy that part. [00:19:27] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:29] Speaker A: So you were pace. You got your master's. Then what. What were you thinking? [00:19:32] Speaker B: Well, then I realized pretty quickly I didn't want to be a teacher, I think. Why? [00:19:37] Speaker A: Why? [00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I guess I just. I didn't see myself being as passionate about it as I thought I was. And if you want to be successful at, like, really anything, you gotta. You gotta be passionate about it. You want. You want to want to do it. And, you know, I got a. You know, there's a little capitalist side of me that, you know, I wanted to make some money and I wanted to make a. [00:20:02] Speaker A: What about interfacing with children, I mean, with younger people, was that. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Well, I loved it. I love teaching. I love having a positive influence and I never let go of that. I still stayed involved in the world of education. I was involved with two charter schools in Washington D.C. one of them, I was the founding board chair. [00:20:20] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:20:21] Speaker B: And I helped them with the real estate side. So I, I always kept my hand in it. I always volunteered, coach basketball. And then of course, when I had kids, that's all I did. I loved coaching my kids in basketball, flag football. So yeah, I kept it part of my life. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Maybe it was patience with, you know, in education. [00:20:39] Speaker B: You know what, I think that actually had a lot to do with it. I think I was like, you know, I don't, I don't have the patience. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Education takes patience. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. [00:20:51] Speaker A: I think that's probably the one of the top three skills in education. [00:20:55] Speaker B: I think, I think you're right. I mean, I think about the great teachers I had growing up and they were all very patient and they were very like this, just very, very calm. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Because they have to put up with a lot, right? [00:21:11] Speaker B: True. Very much so. But I did learn to deal with children and that has helped me my career because there are a lot of adults out there that are actually children. [00:21:20] Speaker A: That's right, there are. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:24] Speaker A: I mean, our business, real estate, takes patience too. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Clearly. I mean, you don't put up a building in a month. [00:21:31] Speaker B: No, that's the hardest part about this business is being a developer. It could take years for it to come to fruition. [00:21:39] Speaker A: Decades sometimes. [00:21:40] Speaker B: And sometimes decades. But it's the vision and seeing that vision come to fruition that makes it fun for me. [00:21:49] Speaker A: There you go. Yeah. Okay, well, that's cool. So you did start in the real estate industry up in New York with Newmark. So how did that happen? [00:21:59] Speaker B: So shortly after the teaching, the short lived teaching career. You know, look, I've always been, I've always gravitated towards real estate for obvious reasons. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Sure. [00:22:09] Speaker B: So I was. So I figured, you know, let me see if this is what I want to do because if I do, I'd rather figure out now than later. I had no experience except for working in construction, but I wasn't going to go be a laborer at, you know, 24 or 23, however old that is. So a good friend of mine's brother was a broker at Newmark and he, Gary, go be a broker. You're not going to get paid much, but eat what you kill and you learn the business. I can set up an interview for you. So I was like, great. He goes, but make sure you want to be a broker, because I don't want you to go in interview and then realize you don't want to be a broker. So make sure you know what you want to do in real estate, but he can get you in the door. So I thought about it, and I called my father. I'm like, so I have an opportunity for an interview, but I want to. I got to know what I mean. Gary, do you want to be a broker? Do you want to be a property manager? And my father is like, well, what do you want to do? I'm like, well, I want to make money. And he started laughing at me. And he goes, gary, you've never been motivated by money, for whatever reason, whether it's because he already had it or because you never needed to or whatever. Why are you all of a sudden motivated by money? And I was like, I don't know. That just seems like the right answer. I want to go be. Go in real estate so I can make money. And he goes, and he's, you know, you've always been a builder. You've always been creative. You know, since I was a kid, I would buy these advanced Lego sets. And I just. That was my. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:38] Speaker B: And he goes, so why do you want to be a broker? I'm like, okay, it's fine. It's a good point. He's like, the summers that you did construction, did you enjoy it? Yes. Why? Well, because I was building something, and I. The people. And then you go, okay, so why don't you say. Why don't you go into that? You learn real estate through the sticks and the bricks. So that. That resonated with me. And. And I told the broker, I knew Mark. He goes, you know what? You're not going to interview with me. You're going to interview with someone else who runs our property management and construction division. [00:24:11] Speaker A: There you go. [00:24:11] Speaker B: I said, great. So I went in, I talked with this guy, and he knows I had no experience. And he goes, look, you're. You got a good resume. You know, you're obviously, you know, a smart guy. He knew I came from a real estate family. He goes, look, I need an assistant. Okay, you're overqualified, but you're going to be my assistant. Not overqualified because of real estate, but overqualified because the things I was going to be doing for him, right? And I was like, done. I'm in. He Goes, you will learn the business, trust me. But you're going to be doing other stuff, too. And that may mean, Gary, go pick up my dry cleaning and. Right. But I was okay with that because, I mean, was that. What was I going to do? I wasn't going to start a job in real estate where I had no experience and just expect to start dealing with tenants. Right. So the admin part of the job never really happened. I mean, he threw me in there. I mean, I was working, I was going to jobs. I was taking inventory of appliances at construction jobs. I was looking at plans. He taught me how to read plans. Okay, Gary, how many microwaves? Count how many microwaves? Because the subcontractor, the electrician, is saying that he's going to price out 300 microwaves. Well, go on the plans and make sure, because these architects make mistakes a lot. So I really learned how to the detail of it all. But I was enjoying it. I was enjoying it. And then he said, look, Gary, we own the Flatiron building and we're renovating, replacing the elevators for the first time ever. These elevators are hydraulic. That's how they run this hydraulic system. We're going to demo it. We're going to put in. [00:25:55] Speaker A: It's a 19th century building. Yeah. [00:25:57] Speaker B: We're going to put in 1990s technology. And I learn about that. So he really. He really liked me and he really wanted me to learn the business. And so it just became a really cool experience. And I did that for a few years. And then. And then I decided to move here and work. Work with my father. [00:26:17] Speaker A: So what drove you to come back? [00:26:20] Speaker B: Well, it's a little complicated, but, you know, growing up, you know, my brother was the guy. He was the one who was going to be taking over this business. You know, I was going to be a teacher, right. I was going to change the world. I was altruistic. I was going to do all Phil was. And, you know, there was a little pressure, you know, well, Gary, Phil, you know, is not interested. And da, da, da. And it was. There was. There was some pressure there, but deep down inside, I knew that's where ultimately I wanted to end up. So I figured, all right, why don't I just go ahead and do it now? So I. That's. That's what I did. Plus, I love the city. I love urban renewal. I love living in New York. And at the time, Anthony Williams was the mayor of D.C. and what he was doing with D.C. i loved. There was a renaissance going on, and I wanted to be Part of the. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Verizon center, creating the pulse of D.C. sure. [00:27:23] Speaker B: So it just, it made sense. So that's what I did. [00:27:27] Speaker A: So what did you do when you. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Came back to Wilco Management and Construction? [00:27:32] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:32] Speaker B: In fact, the first, when I moved, when I. When I moved back, it was the late 90s and my father finally found a tenant for Vanguard Building, I. E. Peace Corps. And he goes, you know, were hiring Siegel Construction, but you did some of construction management and you learned it in New York. Why don't you be the owner rep? [00:27:59] Speaker A: Had it been vacant a while? [00:28:00] Speaker B: It was vacant for about five, six years. Wow. It was vacant for a while. At one point, I believe they were talking to Marriott to convert it to a hotel. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Really? [00:28:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And the Peace Corps came around and that was just sort of a no brainer. GSA government tenant, 20 year lease done. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:17] Speaker B: And a lot less expensive than converting a building into a hotel. So I was the owner rep. I worked very closely with my father on that and that was a fun project. I got to know Siegel Construction very well at the time. The president of or the vice president. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Of construction, Ellen Siegel. [00:28:36] Speaker B: So I didn't know Ellen. I mean, I knew Jared, Jerry. Yeah. But the person that I really got to know, and this will go back to this later on in the story, the person I really got to know well was at the time the vice president of construction by the name of Tom McCullough. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:55] Speaker B: And Tom McCullough worked for Jerry for about 20 years. And Tom McCullough and I got to know each other very well during that project. [00:29:03] Speaker A: Okay. [00:29:04] Speaker B: And that has a story later on in. In this. But anyway, so I did that, I did some management, but quite honestly, it wasn't working. It just wasn't working right. It was complicated. What I really wanted to do was I wanted to develop something. I wanted to create something. And I wasn't given that opportunity. And I just figured, you know what, Dad, I think, I think need to go do my own thing. And he was very, very supportive. And I said, problem is, I have no money, so how am I going to do a deal? He goes, gary, find a deal and we'll figure that money part out later. I said, okay, fine. So I found a deal. 13th and Penn Southeast, which back in the early 2000s was not a good neighborhood. It was across the street from the Potomac housing. It was before the Harris Teeter got built. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Was that near Eastern Market? [00:30:06] Speaker B: It was. It was about 11 blocks south. So closer to the bridge, where you go? Souza Bridge, Sousa Bridge. So it's further away. [00:30:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:20] Speaker B: It was a parking lot, not a good neighborhood. You had some drug dealers hanging out there. And it was. It was. But I saw this lot, the broker I knew, and I stood on the lot. When you stepped, it was. It was. It was on the corner. And you look up Pennsylvania Avenue and there's the capital. Like, this has got to work. Some way, shape or form, this has to work. So I called the broker up, and he goes, gary, it's yours for a million bucks. So I, you know, I underwrote it, and I was like, well, okay, I think, you know, at 300 bucks a foot, meaning selling these condos at 300 bucks a foot, which I thought I could do. I think I can make money. So around that time, Tom McCullough was leaving Seagull Construction because he wanted to do his own thing. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:31:09] Speaker B: And I said, hey, Tom, any interest in. Because I don't. I can't do this by myself. I need a partner, and I need someone that knows how to build something I didn't know how to beat. I wasn't a general contractor. And he goes, gary, not only am I looking for new third party work, but, yeah, I'm looking to be someone's partner. I want to put my own money in it. He's just fine. So I would be very interested. So Tom and I became partners, but we needed to raise more money. So then I went to Harry Moszevitis, which is Jimmy Moshevitis son, and a gentleman named John Carumbus. And we each put up about. [00:31:47] Speaker A: Sounds Greek. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Very Greek. And Irish. Tom's Irish. So we went ahead and we all put in about 75 grand. My father lent me the money. He thought I was crazy. He was waiting for me to fall on my face. And he goes, because not in a bad way. Just 13th and Penn. Southeast was not a good neighborhood. He thought I was crazy. And I convinced him that you will not lose money, dad. You will not lose money. And he said, okay, wrote me the check, and two years later, we turned $300,000 into $2.3 million. We made $2 million in that deal. [00:32:31] Speaker A: So what did you develop there? [00:32:32] Speaker B: We developed 12 duplex condos. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Got it. [00:32:36] Speaker B: And at the time, we sold them for 500 bucks a foot. And it was a record. [00:32:41] Speaker A: It was a record in that location. [00:32:43] Speaker B: In that location. And people were shocked. Now, I knew we had to separate ourselves from the competition, right? So I was thinking, you know, D.C. does not have real lofty type of space. I lived in New York. [00:32:54] Speaker A: So you took New York architecture. [00:32:56] Speaker B: I told the architect, this is what I want. Go crazy. Of course, McCullough, Tom and him fought all the time about, you know, value engineering versus what I wanted, versus what Tom. It ended up working out. And 15 foot ceiling heights, huge floor to ceiling windows. It was that, that, that wasn't a thing in D.C. back then. And people fell in love with it and they paid for it. [00:33:20] Speaker A: Isn't that something? [00:33:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And I remember showing him. [00:33:24] Speaker A: That's exciting. [00:33:24] Speaker B: I remember showing him the. At the end of the day, how much money I made and he almost fell over. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:32] Speaker A: That's great. [00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:34] Speaker A: So after that. [00:33:35] Speaker B: So after that, Tom McCullough and I built about three, four more projects together. We built Jefferson Row, which was 23 condos in Dupont Circle, across street from the Palm. We built eight condos in Shaw on 11th Street. And we had a deal out in Petworth we did with Donatelli, and then. And then condos. [00:33:53] Speaker A: All for sale. [00:33:54] Speaker B: All. All fee simple. All for sale condos. [00:33:57] Speaker A: Why not rental? [00:33:58] Speaker B: You know, in retrospect, that's what I should have done because when I drive around the city now and I'm like, God, if I still own that, that would be great. Yeah. So. But hey, you know, I didn't know and no one told me. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:15] Speaker B: So. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Well, your dad did a lot of for sale stuff too. [00:34:18] Speaker B: Houses. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker A: That was kind of the. [00:34:21] Speaker B: That's how he started. [00:34:22] Speaker A: That was kind of the family thing. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:25] Speaker A: Most of the long term ownership properties were commercial, which you own. Right. You didn't own that many residential. [00:34:31] Speaker B: None. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Rentals, barely. [00:34:32] Speaker B: We had a motel in Wheaton. [00:34:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:35] Speaker B: But no, we didn't really own any apartments. [00:34:37] Speaker A: No apartments. Yeah. Right. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:39] Speaker A: That's interesting. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:41] Speaker A: It's unlike a lot of the other big families. Most of them started with apartments, growing. Charles E. Smith and all those were. [00:34:48] Speaker B: You know, the family. [00:34:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Learners. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah, very much. [00:34:52] Speaker A: All started with apartments. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, so that partnership with McCullough was Wilco Residential. [00:34:59] Speaker B: That was Wilco Residential. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Okay, so let's see. So did you. How long did that entity keep going? I mean, is it still going? [00:35:08] Speaker B: Well, the entity is still going. It's just not as active. I finally got smart and decided not to buy property and sell it, but to buy property and hold on to it. So I own a few rental units. Not a huge portfolio, but now I try to. That's what I like to do. I like to own. It's a pain, it's not easy, it's not glamorous, it's not Sexy. But it's a great investment, and I plan on holding onto them as long as I possibly can. [00:35:37] Speaker A: So at some point, you decided to come back home to the parents. So what made that decision and what drove that conversation? [00:35:46] Speaker B: You know, it just. Look, things happen organically, right? Sure, sometimes. My brother moved to California. My father, Chad, Jason here. And that didn't work out. He was getting older. I was actually. At the time, I was actually going through a divorce. And I was sort of at a crossroads as well. I was just, you know, our relationship was. Got closer than ever because we weren't working together. And he approached me, you know, at one of our breakfasts that we would have, and he would say, you know, you think about coming back? And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. You know, dad. But after everything we've been through and everything's good now, and our relationship is good, and, you know, I don't think it's a good idea. I think I just need to continue doing my own thing and you do your thing. But after a while, I felt like I really, really wanted to, you know, And I felt it was almost like, not incumbent upon me, but a responsibility. You know, one thing that Adam Bernstein once told me that I really said, you know, Gary, when I was in my early 30s and I could be getting. I may be butchering the story a little. So forgive me, Adam, if I'm butchering the story a little. But he told me that, you know, his father, Stuart, wanted to make Adam president. Said, adam, you're going to be president, and you're moving into my office. And Adam was like, dad, I'm only 30. You know, thank you for the president title. Okay, But I'm not moving into your office. That. That's your office. That was Leo's office. His dad's. Yeah, I'm not moving that office. And he goes, dad, maybe in 10 years we'll have this conversation. And Stuart sat Adam down and said, adam, let me tell you something. You see this office? They see everything around us. The real estate, all this, this office and what all this. This is bigger than us. This is bigger than me. This is bigger than you. This is bigger than Leo. This is family. This is our legacy. [00:38:05] Speaker A: It's the company. [00:38:06] Speaker B: So I thought that was a really cool story. And I thought of that, and I was like, interesting. Yeah, this is bigger than me. [00:38:14] Speaker A: Legacy. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Yeah, legacy. [00:38:16] Speaker A: So Wilco's portfolio has evolved over the years with assets and several asset classes, including office, retail, industrial, and residential. In past years, Wilco has developed for sale office and residential condominiums and income producing projects as well. Have you refined your strategy regarding product type development and investment term? [00:38:39] Speaker B: So have we refined our strategy? No. Here's the one thing we are. We're very local and we're under the radar and I think that's what we're good at. You know, we like to go after projects that are, you know, too, too big for the small guys but, but, but too small for the big boys. Right. And yes, we've been around and we have a nice portfolio and you know, people consider us, you know, one of the big boys and all that. But one of the reasons we got there is because we go after the singles. You know, we just bought a great shopping center in Kensington, you know, and across the street we bought. [00:39:23] Speaker A: I live a mile, less than a mile from there. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Great little shopping center across the street. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Snyder's, right? [00:39:29] Speaker B: Johnson, Johnson, Johnson Johnson's. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Across the street we bought a 46 unit, you know, garden style apartment building. There's a great long term buys. You know, we love industrial. The majority of our portfolio right now is industrial. [00:39:45] Speaker A: So here in Montgomery County. [00:39:46] Speaker B: In Montgomery county mostly. Yeah. We have some in Virginia, but mostly Montgomery County. So we like to. That's our strategy. Just stay nimble and stay focused and just continue to be the best local experts out there. [00:40:05] Speaker A: That's interesting. So I mean that property in Kensington is not even 50,000 square feet, is it? [00:40:11] Speaker B: No, it's just a little under. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty small. [00:40:14] Speaker B: Yeah. But you know what? When we bought it, the rents were 12 bucks a foot. And on renewals we're getting north of 20 bucks a foot. [00:40:21] Speaker A: Wow. [00:40:22] Speaker B: So we're adding value. [00:40:24] Speaker A: My barber was there, Barbara. [00:40:26] Speaker B: And the antique stuff, we just combined both those spaces and put a Carmen's in behind there. We opened up a brewery. [00:40:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Which is very. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Was that your deal? [00:40:35] Speaker B: That's our deal. Yeah. [00:40:37] Speaker A: I love that place. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Baby cat. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:40] Speaker A: It's fun. [00:40:40] Speaker B: It's great. [00:40:42] Speaker A: It's an interesting idea. You know, you couldn't do much else with that space. No, I didn't realize it was back there until I read about it. I said really? [00:40:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:52] Speaker A: That's. [00:40:53] Speaker B: That's how you. That's. That those are. The little. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Parking is an interesting. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Parking is a challenge. But we're working on ways to make that less challenging. [00:41:02] Speaker A: I didn't realize til you guys, until I read that you guys owned that. That's fascinating. So that's kind of cool. So there really isn't a written we're going to pursue this size deal and this location and it's just kind of you look at opportunities as they come, basically. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's not to say that we'll have a little more of a sort of focused, I don't know what you want to call it, business plan or strategy in the future, but this just seems to work for us. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Okay. One of the largest land positions you have is just north of pike and Rose in Rockville called Rose Village. Talk about that project and how it's evolved because I know there's been a lot of things written about it where you got amazing density and then you reduced it. So talk a little bit about that project and how long your family's owned it and what's the overall thought process been over the years with it. [00:42:00] Speaker B: So that's another legacy asset. My grandfather bought that when it was a farm. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Really? [00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's been, you know, over the years we, my father built several office buildings for nih. They were the huge, they were the main tenant there. It was almost, it was, it was actually one of their main campuses for NIH for many, many, many years. And obviously everything that's going on in the office building world, we had a pivot and figure, okay, you know, we're not going to be renewing the government again for another 20, you know, we're not going to be signing 20 year lease at 20 year leases anymore. So what are we going to do with this? And we decided to, you know, let's, let's, let's, let's build a community or right next to pike and Rose. Let's build housing, let's build apartments and let's do some retail. So we got it approved several years ago for about a little north of 2 million square feet. I believe the original approval was about close to 1900 units and about 35,000 square feet of retail and a big park in the middle. And then that became too expensive to build. No one was going to, it wasn't, it didn't work. You couldn't get it underwritten. So we had a pivot again. And this pivot is now where we're going to get about half or 20. Well, yeah, about half of the apartments will be affordable. And working with the county, working with the state of Maryland, try to get some funding from them and we're going to fill a need in Montgomery county, you know, that missing middle for the cops and the teachers and the firemen and have a place for them to live and work. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Well, your basis is Pretty low there. So you can still make money. [00:43:45] Speaker B: Our basis is very low. And again, this is a 10 year project, so that the affordable housing component is phase one. You know, hopefully eventually the market comes back a little and then we can do the rest market. But it's a way for us to put a shovel in the ground and get started and fill a need and make money. [00:44:07] Speaker A: Well, and it's also good public relations for your company. So, yeah, over long term you can do have more flexibility on things. [00:44:14] Speaker B: Correct. And also, you know, this Rose Village is. Has been my father's baby, you know, and he, Montgomery county has been very good to him. And I think this is also his way of giving back and part of his legacy. [00:44:27] Speaker A: Well, that's cool. So when do you plan to break ground there, do you think? [00:44:31] Speaker B: That's a good question. Yeah, hopefully in the next couple of years. [00:44:35] Speaker A: So physically, as I remember now, of course, I've lived in Washington now almost 40 years. So it was a Toys R Us anchored shopping center, Corvettes. And then there was a bus yard that the Montgomery county had just north of that. So was your site kind of to the west of that bus yard? Is that where it is? Exactly. Well, where is it? [00:45:01] Speaker B: So Toys R Us is where pike and Rose is. [00:45:03] Speaker A: That's right. [00:45:04] Speaker B: We're directly behind it. So remember old, old Georgetown Road? [00:45:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:07] Speaker B: We're on the other side of that. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:45:10] Speaker B: 20 acres from there down to where the Jewish Federation is on the other side. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Got it. [00:45:16] Speaker B: So Executive Boulevard, Montrose Road. We're in between. [00:45:20] Speaker A: I see. Okay, got it. All right, so what's there now? [00:45:27] Speaker B: Right now we have three buildings that are standing there. One is mothballed. We're going to demo. [00:45:33] Speaker A: It's an office building. [00:45:34] Speaker B: It's an office building. We have 6,000. It's that 6011 Executive Boulevard. [00:45:38] Speaker A: Got it. [00:45:39] Speaker B: 6003 Executive Boulevard. We have about two years left on the last tenant in there. We'll end up knocking that down. And then we have another 15 years left with NIH. 6001 Executive Boulevard, which is. That's not going anywhere. That'll remain an office building. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. My orthopedic doctor, I think is one of those buildings. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:45:59] Speaker A: At one point. [00:46:00] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:01] Speaker A: Because it was one of them. That's the medical. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Medical, yep. [00:46:03] Speaker A: As I remember. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that was 60, 11. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Now, did your dad develop those buildings? [00:46:08] Speaker B: He did, yeah, he did. Okay. Yeah. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Those are what, 1970s, 80s. [00:46:13] Speaker B: 70S and 80s, yeah. Yeah. [00:46:16] Speaker A: Okay. That whole Executive Boulevard area was about that same era. [00:46:20] Speaker B: Well, we used to Own most of it. And then over the years, my, you know, my father sold it off, but still. But we still owned. [00:46:28] Speaker A: So that dirt was all assembled when it was built? Those were built, yeah, back then. Okay, well, that's interesting. Okay. Your company's first investment we talked a little bit about earlier was the Vanguard building downtown. And then you had 1275 Penn. How did that 1275 Penn enter the equation? When did that get developed and how did the family get involved in that project? [00:46:51] Speaker B: So my grandfather bought it and I feel like he bought that in the mid-60s. [00:47:00] Speaker A: So PADC had started at that point because I think President Kennedy, when he came into office, he looked at Pennsylvania and said, we got to do something about this. And I think that's when it happened. [00:47:11] Speaker B: Pennsylvania Avenue Development Corporation. [00:47:13] Speaker A: It happened either early in the Johnson administration or in the Kennedy administration. Administration in 1960s. Right. [00:47:19] Speaker B: It's around that time. I don't know the exact date, but he. Yeah, he bought that with a gentleman named Greenie Fisher who was one of his old friends and partners. [00:47:30] Speaker A: What was it before that was. [00:47:33] Speaker B: You know what? I think it was always office. Yeah. But I don't remember the tenant mix. But what I do remember is in the mid-80s, my father signed a large lease with Sutherland as Bill and Brennan to take the whole building. And he did a major renovation, which is what it looks like now. And for two summers I worked in that building. [00:48:03] Speaker A: Is Sutherland still there? [00:48:04] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, no, they're gone. Covington and Burling and Southern. Aswell and Brenton. I'm sorry. Both of those. Sorry. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Pretty good. [00:48:12] Speaker B: Covington and Burling and Southern and Aslan Bre both had the whole building. Yeah. They're gone. It's mixed now. It's a mix. [00:48:21] Speaker A: More tenants. [00:48:22] Speaker B: More tenants. Multi tenanted building. Yeah. [00:48:24] Speaker A: And that's a family legacy. You're going to keep it. You're not going to sell that building. Okay. Correct. Yeah. Interesting. [00:48:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:31] Speaker A: And that's not a renovation down the road, potentially. [00:48:35] Speaker B: Well, you know, never say never, but don't tell my father that. I think it'll be a great apartment building one day, but hey, that's for another time. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Well, I think. You know what's interesting about that whole quarter. [00:48:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Is what happens. I think what the FBI redevelopment, if it ever happens, will drive what happens to the rest of Pennsylvania because of the scale of that project. It'll be so big and it'll be mixed use, I'm sure of that. And probably predominantly residential. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:10] Speaker A: So that'll change the whole nature of Pennsylvania, in my view. [00:49:13] Speaker B: I agree. [00:49:13] Speaker A: It's going to take a catalyst like that to do that, I would think. [00:49:17] Speaker B: I agree with you. Yeah. I think the city in general, the whole landscape of it is changing, no question, because of what's going on in the world. And I think it's going to become a lot more of a livable city where you're going to have a lot more people actually living well. [00:49:35] Speaker A: It's interesting. My last interview was with Oliver Carr, and so we talked about Southwest Washington a little bit. I don't know if your family has investments down there or not, but that's a federal, predominantly federal landscape down there. And, you know, he said that basically Josh Bernstein said that they should. The federal government, the city and gsa, Congress, everybody should sit down and figure out, what are we going to do with all these antiquated buildings and start redeveloping and do big RFPs and maybe get the city involved, have the city basically take over that land. That would be great. And that would put a lot of buildings on the tax rolls for the city. So I think it's a win, win, win for everybody. It's just going to take a lot of ingenuity and energy by people to get it done. But to me, if you walk down there, you know, near the Smithsonian and then go head down towards the wharf, it's not safe, even just not a comfortable environment. And it needs it. That's fine. [00:50:43] Speaker B: No, I don't disagree with you. [00:50:45] Speaker A: And I'm hoping there's enough, you know, oomph behind it. I mean, L'Enfant Plaza just was foreclosed on for 25% alone. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Crazy. I know. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. So hopefully something will happen. So any other projects you want to talk about or things that you guys are doing that you want to bring up that you think are worth listening to or talking about? [00:51:08] Speaker B: Well, we've just finished the L, which was the big project, of course. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Talk about that. [00:51:13] Speaker B: That was a success. 163 units, 8,000 square feet of retail. [00:51:19] Speaker A: What was the decision making going into that process? [00:51:22] Speaker B: So we initially we were going to do a class A super B office building, which was aimed at about like 65 bucks a foot. [00:51:31] Speaker A: When did the Peace Corps lease expire? [00:51:33] Speaker B: 2018. [00:51:35] Speaker A: So, okay, so that's when your decision made, right? [00:51:39] Speaker B: Well, we were thinking about it beforehand, of course, but we were preparing to try to find a tenant to take at least half the building. So then we could. Because obviously we wanted to do spec. And this is even before COVID the office Market was sort of heading down. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Oh, sure. [00:51:55] Speaker B: We couldn't find anything. [00:51:56] Speaker A: Sequestration was the big tipping point for Washington. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:59] Speaker A: About 2013. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Right. So I just think that Covid expedited all that. But it was already heading. It was already heading in a bad place. So my background is residential, and me and my father and his partner thought. His partner, Steve Fisher, by the way, he thought, let's pivot and let's see if this thing could be a good apartment building. Why not? So we did all the research, and it checked all the boxes. Four sides of light and air. It wasn't post tension. The column spacing was good. The floor plates were good. [00:52:40] Speaker A: What's the floor plate on that? [00:52:41] Speaker B: It's about 23,000 square feet. 24,000 square feet. The window lines were good. The location is great. And even though that convincing, people thought we were crazy because it's the golden Triangle. No one lives in the Golden Triangle. I'm like, yeah, but guys, the west end is three blocks away. Dupont Circle is right here. Foggy Bottom is right here. So it took a while to convinced the lenders to give us money, but. But you know, obviously they came around. Took the city a while to understand it as well. But so, yeah, so we, we hired McCulloch Construction as a third party GC to do the renovation. And, you know, it's turned out great. We're 65% lease. [00:53:27] Speaker A: That's great. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Yeah, we're getting north of five bucks a foot. We secured a restaurant tenant for the retail 8,000 sq ft restaurant tenant called Moxie's. They're based out of Canada. So we're excited and happy and how. [00:53:40] Speaker A: I saw that Bazzuto is managing it and how did they help you? [00:53:43] Speaker B: Oh, my God. They were with us from day one. They helped us figure out our demographic. They helped us figure out the amenity package, the size of the units. They really helped us. They were tremendous. This is their world. I mean, I know multifamily, but not to this level. This is, you know, this isn't a urban infill boutique condo building. You know, in Shaw, this is a whole different ballgame. And having someone like Buzudo help us was tremendous. [00:54:12] Speaker A: So how did that process happen, choosing Buzzuto to do that? [00:54:17] Speaker B: Well, we. We knew that if we were going to do this, we needed all the bells and whistles. We needed the class A. We needed north of four bucks a foot. We ended up getting north of five. So, okay, that ended up working out well. But we were going to do it. We were going to do it right. And we had to have an experience. And Basuto, it was just a natural choice. Plus my father knew Tom Buzzuto. He and I both met with Tom Bazzuto actually on Rose Village several years back. I really liked him. I knew some guys in the office who run development. This gentleman named Mike Hanahan. So we were familiar with Buzzuto. We liked their culture, we liked their principles, you know, so it was just, it was natural and it's been a great relationship. [00:55:01] Speaker A: That's great. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. [00:55:04] Speaker A: So, okay, are you looking at other residential development now, since you had that good experience there, I mean, of that scale, you know? [00:55:13] Speaker B: Yes, but it's so hard right now to find a deal where I can duplicate that just because of the know land cost. It's, it's, it's hard to find. [00:55:25] Speaker A: So you're watching the rent roll at 1275 Penn to see when those tenants expire. [00:55:30] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:55:31] Speaker A: You can. [00:55:31] Speaker B: We actually have. Right, right, right. But we actually have a building in I Street, 1722 I Street. Oh, which the VA, another government tenant. Their leases expires in two years. And that's infill, though. [00:55:43] Speaker A: That's mid block. [00:55:44] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and that's why it's. That won't work for residential. We try to A hotel maybe, but we're looking at the possibility of converting into a hotel. So we're in the very beginning stages of trying to figure that out. So we'll see. [00:56:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I know that block. Yeah, yeah, that's tough. [00:56:05] Speaker B: It's a tough block. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Yeah. It's long and narrow, right? [00:56:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it is. [00:56:11] Speaker A: And you don't like window line in the front and the back is an alley, right? [00:56:14] Speaker B: Yep. [00:56:14] Speaker A: And there's probably nothing on the side. [00:56:16] Speaker B: Well, it's actually three sides. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Right. But it is right up against another building. So. But in the alley is narrow. [00:56:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I worked on one like that on Connecticut Avenue for a while. It's hard. [00:56:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:29] Speaker A: Most mid black buildings. [00:56:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:32] Speaker A: So the Washington real estate market was hampered by the pandemic with long range implications. However, it appears that we are nearing bottom of the market. How do you see opportunities going forward? That's part of what we just talked about. Will you remain the D.C. area centric or consider exploring other markets? [00:56:52] Speaker B: Going back to what I said before, we're local and that's the advantage we have. So I think that we're going to stay DC centric in terms of DC proper. I remain bullish on it. I still think that, you know, even though what's going on with, you know, the federal government downsizing and people not coming into the office as much. I'm a firm believer of the city dweller and the urban vibe. And people want to live in cities, people want to be in cities. You just have to give them a reason to come. So I think that we have to be creative. I'm working with the Golden Triangle bid, I'm working with the Federal City Council and with many other developers, Oliver Carr included, where, you know, we're trying to figure out creative ways. How do we, how do we pivot the new world that we live in? You know, we have all these beautiful alleys in D.C. okay, let's activate them. Let's activate these alleys. Let's make that a destination. Maybe we need to modify some of the zoning. Maybe we need to modify some of the building codes. [00:58:01] Speaker A: How about Farragut Square and some of the parks too? [00:58:05] Speaker B: That too. We have these beautiful parks. How do we activate those parks to make it more of an attraction? What they're doing with a National Geographic building, That's great. You know, so, okay, we gotta, you know, I mean, we are Washington D.C. we are the capital of the world. [00:58:22] Speaker A: Be nice to be like Paris, wouldn't it? [00:58:24] Speaker B: Well, we were. That was the intent, wasn't it? [00:58:26] Speaker A: That was the intent when they laid it out. [00:58:32] Speaker B: I'm still bullish on the long term success of dc. [00:58:38] Speaker A: That's great. Wilco's been a foe. [00:58:41] Speaker B: Oh, and one more thing. [00:58:42] Speaker A: Go ahead. [00:58:43] Speaker B: Building height, I mean, to me that's a no brainer, but unfortunately it literally takes an act of Congress. That's the only thing we have against us with parks too. Right. It takes an act of Congress. But I just feel like there's going to be a point where common sense will kick in. Take a 20, 30 block radius around the mall and can't touch it. Okay. But as you get further up northwest and northeast and southeast and southwest and east of the river, you can start building. You could start increasing the height. Why not on Connecticut Avenue? Chevy Chase dc Why not be able to go ahead and build another 10 stories? [00:59:23] Speaker A: So we had a change in administration coming in January. We also have a change in Congress coming. So to me, an idea like that, based on who's coming in, it'd be an interesting time to make that pitch. 100% agree, don't you think? [00:59:43] Speaker B: 100%. [00:59:45] Speaker A: The question is, would the District government and some of the historical preservationists around town be willing to acquiesce to that or would you just have continual throwdown so, for instance, there was an article two weeks ago, I think it was in the Washington Post, about brutalist buildings in the city. And several of them are now designated as historically historic landmarks. The Hubert Humphrey Building, which is the HHS headquarters. I mean, these are some of the ugliest structures you can possibly think of. And they're historically designated. Now, how does that, you know, it just doesn't make any sense from a. You know, it's not only ugly, but they're not physically. Well, you know, accommodative. [01:00:36] Speaker B: I agree. There's a balance of that, but there's also, you know, there's businessmen and women should be part of those decisions, and otherwise you're not gonna. Nothing's gonna change. [01:00:55] Speaker A: Has to be practical. [01:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:00:58] Speaker A: So that's, you know, it's a challenge. [01:01:01] Speaker B: It'll be easy. [01:01:03] Speaker A: But I think the current administration, the new administration, plus the Congress, the way it's going, part of that is moving people out of Washington. So that's part of the thought process, why the agencies need to be here now with work from home, and the government, they don't come in. So, okay. Why can't Wyoming have. [01:01:25] Speaker B: I'm okay with that. DC Will still be okay. It's still a great city, so it'll be great. [01:01:30] Speaker A: Congress isn't going anywhere. [01:01:32] Speaker B: Correct. The White House isn't going anywhere? [01:01:34] Speaker A: No. So Supreme Court won't go anywhere. So. [01:01:38] Speaker B: Okay. It'll actually. I think it'll maybe make it even more of a. [01:01:42] Speaker A: Well, it could just clear the deck for what we talked about earlier. Right? [01:01:47] Speaker B: Correct. [01:01:48] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [01:01:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:01:50] Speaker A: Because then it becomes a more livable city. So, you know, I know when I messed with Ali, Oliver was extremely optimistic about the next five to 10 years in the city, which is great. I mean, we just need that kind of thought process going forward. There was, you know, I'd like to think that we won't be as contentious going forward. [01:02:11] Speaker B: I hope so. Yeah, I agree. [01:02:13] Speaker A: That's the plan. Wilco has been a family company for 60 plus years now. Have you developed a mission statement with a defined corporate culture and values as a company? [01:02:26] Speaker B: Honestly, it's just. It's family. The one thing my father's done, the one many things that he's done very well, is instill a culture of family. Every. The average employment in this company is like 12 to 17 years. People come here and they stay. We treat them like family. And I think that's been an ingredient for our success. You know, we've had some others that have come and Trying to. Who ran Wilco before me? Who tried to get out of. Tried to go away from that and make us more of a corporate. Corporate. I mean, I knew from day one, good luck with that, because I know my father. There's no way that would happen because that's not him. That's not us. That's not Wilco. That's not who we are. So it's, it's, it's. It's really. It's. It's. It's. It's a family. It's a culture of family and, you know, just. Just, you know, making everyone feel that, you know, they are a part of 1275 Pennsylvania Avenue. They are a part of 1722 High Street. They're part of the industrial properties that we own at the airport and the retail properties on Neville Street. They are part of it. It's part of the family. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Well, you mentioned a couple other families earlier that I want to talk about from a comparative standpoint. One is Pazzuto, who I've interviewed both Toby and Tom. And another is Folger Pratt, who sits literally less than a mile from where we are sitting right now in their office in their park just next door. Both kind of evolved similarly in some respects to yours. There's a construction theme through all three companies to some extent. Pazuto does its own. So does Folger Pratt. And then they just sold their construction company last year to Clark, which is interesting. [01:04:22] Speaker B: And their management, they gave everything to Pasuto. [01:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. But they both. It's interesting. They talked about it, sent the next generation up to Harvard to this family generational thing. And you had mentioned earlier, before we got on about a conference that you just participated with family businesses. What do you think about kind of this legacy family business thought process and how to manage that going forward? You know, they spent an awful lot of time doing. I don't know if you've had a chance to talk to Cameron and I have and Toby about it. [01:04:56] Speaker B: You know, not Toby. I talked to Cameron about it. Yeah. [01:04:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:59] Speaker B: No, I know. He. He did this program at Harvard. [01:05:02] Speaker A: Right. [01:05:02] Speaker B: And. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Right. [01:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, no, he told me all about it. Yeah. It's complicated, the whole family dynamic. But, you know, everyone has to want to make it work, otherwise it's not going to work. At the end of the day, everyone has to want to make it work. So. And it's still a process. It's ever evolving. We did little. We did things like that in the past. We didn't go to a program like a Harvard. But We've had people come in and consultants to help us with transitions and figure all that out. And, you know, quite frankly, they didn't really work, you know, so you gotta, you know, you have to understand what you have. You have to understand the personalities involved, and you have to work within that domain. And if you don't appreciate or understand that and you are continually fighting against that, well, then you're not going to get anywhere. So, you know, I don't know if they answered your question or not, but it's an evolving process. It's hard work every day. It's hard, hard work. You know, but it's not. You know, one thing I've learned is, you know, people don't change. The only thing. And you can't control people. The only thing you can change and control is yourself, is yourself and how you react to other people. And that's a valuable lesson that I've learned. Yeah. [01:06:33] Speaker A: So you accept what there is and, you know, let other people make their own decisions accordingly and work around that, basically, to some extent. Right? [01:06:44] Speaker B: Correct. [01:06:45] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Relationships are key to our industry. Other than family and colleagues, who's influenced you the most in your career? From either the public or private sectors. [01:07:01] Speaker B: I mean, you know. You know, but I guess, yeah, I mean, Tom McCullough was a partner of mine. [01:07:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:07:09] Speaker B: He had a lot to do with my growth. He taught me a lot. But I also sort of have seeked out other mentors out there. Marvin Jower. Yeah, he's tough and he's different, but he's one of the smartest developers. [01:07:24] Speaker A: I have a story about Marvin. [01:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so do I. When Tom and I bought Jefferson Row, Marvin was a tenant. So I had to negotiate with him, and he and I became friends, and we still are to this day. [01:07:37] Speaker A: If you see him, tell him what John Co said. Say hello. All right, I'm going to indulge for a moment. Yeah. Please tell my story with Harmon Shower. So I approached him, and I can't remember exactly how I did, but to finance two of his buildings. So I quoted. So the first building that I looked at with him was 13th and U Street Northwest, which is on top of Metro. The African American Museum was there. And so we went down the road. I had an application and we were negotiating that, and then he just said, you know, John, I think I'm going to leave it with a bank. And he assembled that whole U Street block, actually. And we went over to the famous Ben's Chili bowl for lunch. And, you know, I got to know Marvin Pretty well, and it's good. So I said, okay, I get it. But he said, john, I got another deal I want to talk to you about. So he had the land on top of the courthouse Metro in Arlington. [01:08:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, we used to manage that, which he developed. [01:08:42] Speaker A: The site complicated the project, and he said, I became somewhat of an expert in building on top of metro. And this was the third one he had done because he had done another one in southeast Washington, another metro station where there was a building. I think it was a D.C. government building on top of it. I didn't look at that one. So we were. We had another with a different lender. I had an application all negotiated, ready to go. I mean, it was. It was signature ready. And so I went into his office thinking that I was going to pick up an app and get a check from him for the, you know, the, you know, deposit. He looked at me in the eye and said, you know, John, the bank has just come back to me with something that. But I'll tell you what, because you've been so good to me, I'm going to write you a check. Who should I make this out to for 10 grand right here? And I said, oh, my God, this is not contractual. This is more or less a gift. And so I said, make it out to my company, which I did, because I'd worked hard on these two deals, and that's the first time, only time in my career anyone had ever done that. [01:09:54] Speaker B: Yeah, no more so. [01:09:56] Speaker A: And he had a reputation, being really tough and hard, but I didn't have that experience with him. He was fair. And then he gave me another opportunity. So he had the land with Eddie Lincoln was his partner on the land across from the. From the courthouse Metro, that whole block there. And he got it zoned, and he told me who he worked with. The big Arlington zoning firm. And they got that zone to be the highest site in Arlington county, the tallest F A R site. And it's at the highest piece of ground in the county, right next to. It's right across from the courthouse there. And I. He said, john, you. I'll give you a chance to show it to three developers. So I brought it to Oliver Carr. I brought it to low Enterprises, and I brought it. And I can't. The third was. But. And I didn't think of who ended up getting it, but that was jbg. Of course I should have brought it to Rob Stewart. I just didn't, you know, And Rob ended up tying it up. And his deal was 100 year ground lease, 99 year ground lease. But he wanted a million dollar deposit. And some developers said, eh, I don't know if I want to put a million dollars that for 99 year ground lease. But JBG said that site we're all in. [01:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:22] Speaker A: Well to this day it hasn't been developed yet. And that was 15 years ago, at least maybe 20 years ago. Yeah, I mean it could be a great site, but you know, there's no demand for office there now. But you could do a residential mixed use for development, you know, there. But JBG is not in the framework to do that right now. Of course it's a different company. [01:11:46] Speaker B: Yes, it is. [01:11:47] Speaker A: Than it was. [01:11:48] Speaker B: Yes. Well that's another mentor that I would see throughout the years is Michael Glosserman. [01:11:54] Speaker A: Yes. [01:11:55] Speaker B: From jbg. And. But you know, I also, you know, I have a lot of friends in New York that work for public companies that are high up in public CEO of public companies and other guys that are high up in the real estate world. There are also sort of people that. [01:12:11] Speaker A: I worked in the. [01:12:13] Speaker B: They may not even realize it, but they're actually my mentor as well because I'm always asking questions and. Yeah, yeah. [01:12:19] Speaker A: So that had to have been a shock though to come back to Washington. [01:12:23] Speaker B: A little bit after New York. It was. [01:12:27] Speaker A: New York is just unique. [01:12:29] Speaker B: It's the best city in the world. [01:12:33] Speaker A: And it is a different environment though. [01:12:35] Speaker B: It is. [01:12:35] Speaker A: So I interviewed Ray Richie and Ray of course manages, you know, portfolios here in Washington and New York and Boston for Boston Properties and Los Angeles and San Francisco. And he said Washington compared to those cities, he said this is by far the best place to do business among those cities as a real estate developer. He said his words were it's a chainsaw death match at those other cities of competition. You know, people will back bite, stab you in the back. He said New York and Los Angeles are classic for that. [01:13:13] Speaker B: He said it's true. I mean Jeff Corral used to, you know, Larry Butabin, the guy I worked for, his office is right next to Jeff Corral and he was sort of Jeff Corral's right hand man. And Jeff Correll, I never had interaction, interactions with him, but I would listen to him and my boss and he was tough. I mean, he was tough. So it's, it's a different, it's. Yes, it's a different mindset. It's a different environment and they do. It's, it's different. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Our new president. [01:13:45] Speaker B: Correct? Correct, Exactly. [01:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a boxing match up there. Yeah, deals, you know, so it's, it's interesting. So what are some of the biggest wins, losses and surprising events of your career, Jim? Gary? [01:14:04] Speaker B: I mean, I've had a lot of wins. I've had a couple losses. But I think my biggest is what we were talking about earlier. I wish I held onto these buildings instead of selling them. I wish I still own them. I would have a nice, healthy portfolio right now. [01:14:19] Speaker A: Any other stories about some of the buildings that you developed that, you know, you want to share? [01:14:26] Speaker B: So I developed a small condo building on New York Avenue. It was a townhouse and I actually had to pick it up and move it to the other side of the block. But I made a mistake. At the time, the McCulloughs of the world and the Ikebergs of the world were just so busy of doing bigger projects. This was a small 8 unit condo deal and they wanted to help, but they didn't have the manpower. So I had to find a smaller contractor. And I'm not going to name names, but I found someone and it was a disaster. I ended up firing this guy for cause. He ended up suing me. [01:15:12] Speaker A: Oh, what a mess. [01:15:14] Speaker B: And I won. I won the suit, but, you know, cost a lot of money. And he owed me hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, but he dissolved his entity. And so that was, you know, you gotta. I mean, I know it seems like such a simple thing, but, you know, some people are. They're so anxious to get the shovel in the ground and start, and sometimes they pull the trigger to have someone build it. And that's what happened to me. I got to start this thing. He seemed like the guy. [01:15:50] Speaker A: So what was your biggest lesson there? [01:15:54] Speaker B: My biggest lesson there was don't do your due diligence before you hire anyone, whether it's a GC or property management firm. And on that deal, I did not. I did not do my due diligence. And it completely came and bit me in the ass. I was just running around doing several projects and I was. I was too confident that, oh yeah, yeah, this guy would be great. And I mean, it ended up biting me in the ass. [01:16:24] Speaker A: Did you find out after the fact that he had screwed up elsewhere? [01:16:27] Speaker B: Oh, God, it was, yes. Luckily, the guy I hired to replace him was great and he fixed and found all the problems. But again, it cost a lot of money. So that was the biggest sort of regret of hiring. [01:16:45] Speaker A: How long a process was that from the time you found there was a disaster to you got everything resolved More than a year? [01:16:54] Speaker B: Two years? Oh yeah, a couple years. [01:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that was hard because I was actually in the middle of the lawsuit with him while my other, the new builder I bought, the new general contractor I hired was finishing the building. So it was all going on at the same time. But I mean he made more. Not, not a good, not a good experience. [01:17:13] Speaker A: That's too bad. [01:17:14] Speaker B: Not a good experience. But you know, you live and learn. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Sometimes you got to learn that. [01:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I do tell people, you know, the best lessons I've learned and how I've become smarter are not necessarily the deals that I've had success with, but the deals that I have. [01:17:31] Speaker A: Not pulled success with. [01:17:33] Speaker B: That's where you really become a smarter person. [01:17:35] Speaker A: Any other circumstances like that? Not quite like that. [01:17:38] Speaker B: Not quite like that. But there's some. But nothing. That was the worst. That was the worst one. [01:17:44] Speaker A: So what about dealings with architects? I mean, do you have a good, you know, pretty good relationship with architects? [01:17:49] Speaker B: I do, I do, yeah, I do. [01:17:52] Speaker A: And then contracting. Do you do pretty much GC your own now or you always hire a third party? [01:17:57] Speaker B: Unless it's a smaller job? I mean I, you know, I own a six unit building right by the actually Civil War Memorial Metro not far from 13th. And you and I had to go ahead and you know, put about $20,000 a unit to renovate it and get new tenants. I just self perform that myself, you know, self GC that but for the bigger projects. No, no, no, I know what, I know, I know what I don't know. I hire a third party and then. [01:18:21] Speaker A: As far as leasing, you hire third parties on leasing? [01:18:24] Speaker B: I do. [01:18:25] Speaker A: And brokerage for sales. [01:18:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [01:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:29] Speaker A: So in house, more or less just asset management. And you know what else does Wilco do? [01:18:35] Speaker B: No, Wilco does property management, asset management, construction management. And we actually do have an in house leasing guy, but for the most part we do use third party. But he has some of our buildings where he does it in house. [01:18:50] Speaker A: So industrial, for instance, you self manage? [01:18:52] Speaker B: No. Oh yeah, we self manage that. But we have Lincoln Property does all the leasing for those properties. They have a, a couple guys in there that they are Mr. Montgomery County Industrial. And there are guys and they do all of our leasing. They're great. Ethan Bernardi and Nate Bortnick, they're very good. [01:19:14] Speaker A: Are you going to just keep properties long term always or would you look at selling assets occasionally? [01:19:21] Speaker B: I mean, never say never, right. If the right opportunity came along, sure. I mean I think it's. If I Don't think I can actually say no. We're going to hold on to things forever because I just. How can you say that? Because you don't know. [01:19:37] Speaker A: You don't know. Okay, sure. So if somebody just came along. But there's no intentional recycling strategy or anything like that. [01:19:46] Speaker B: No. [01:19:47] Speaker A: Physically, you would, but not necessarily. [01:19:51] Speaker B: I mean, look, we do own some. The shopping center in Kensington. We've added so much value to that. I mean, that could be an asset one day. [01:20:00] Speaker A: Well, there were two centers in Rockville that Wash REIT bought from you, right? Yeah. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Right. So everything, you know, even though we don't have any plans for selling anything, everything's for sale. [01:20:14] Speaker A: There you go. [01:20:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:18] Speaker A: So what was the most surprising of that happened in your career? Was it the deal that. The first deal you did at Pennsylvania Avenue, Was that the most surprising? [01:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. Yeah, that was probably the most surprising. [01:20:30] Speaker A: On the. On the good side. [01:20:32] Speaker B: On the good side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:20:36] Speaker A: Okay. So you've been very active in the community, including. You talked about earlier your board memberships of KIPP DC School. Talk about your community contributions and why they are important to you. [01:20:47] Speaker B: So, as you know, my background is teaching, and I always wanted to be involved in it, some way, shape or form. So I went to an event once, and I actually. I actually think Jamal invited me. He said, hey, Gary, I know you're into schools and education. I'm helping a charter school called KIPP dc. They're having a fundraiser night. Why don't you go? So I went. And after it, I went right up to the executive director, Susan, and I said, I want to get involved. She's great. We're brand new. I need young people like you, and I need young people that know real estate. So come in. Her name is Susan Scheffler. Come in to school, you know, on Monday, and let's talk. [01:21:33] Speaker A: Where is KIPP dc? [01:21:34] Speaker B: Oh, they're everywhere now. I mean, where was the first campus in Houston. But in D.C. the first campus was the Blue Castle building. [01:21:43] Speaker A: Oh, sure. Yes. [01:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:21:46] Speaker A: Madison Marquette owned that building. [01:21:47] Speaker B: That's right. [01:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. Okay. [01:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was on their board for about six years. [01:21:53] Speaker A: Did Madison Marquette sell the building to Kip? [01:21:55] Speaker B: You know, I feel like Madison Marquette bought the building while Kip was there. [01:22:01] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:02] Speaker A: Okay. So they still own it. [01:22:04] Speaker B: I'm not sure if they still own it or not, but they very well could. I think they had grander plans of redevelopment. [01:22:09] Speaker A: Right. [01:22:10] Speaker B: Of that, and then the site across the street. So I'm not Really sure where they are in that. [01:22:17] Speaker A: Is Kip still there in that building? [01:22:20] Speaker B: No, they're not in that building anymore. They are not. But they have 78 locations all around the city, so they've done very well. [01:22:28] Speaker A: So they're a private entity? Kip is. [01:22:31] Speaker B: Well, it's a charter school. [01:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [01:22:34] Speaker B: So it's sort of a private, public partnership, but yeah. [01:22:41] Speaker A: And what's the admission thing there? I mean, is it. [01:22:45] Speaker B: Everything is a lottery. You do apply, but, you know, they get funded by different foundations, like the Gates foundation, the Wasserman Foundation. [01:22:54] Speaker A: Right. [01:22:55] Speaker B: So families do not have to pay to go there. [01:22:58] Speaker A: And you're involved both with your time and finance. [01:23:01] Speaker B: Well, I'm not involved with KFTC anymore. [01:23:03] Speaker A: Oh, you are not? [01:23:04] Speaker B: I am not. And shortly after that, I actually, my neighbor started a charter school and needed help on the real estate side of it. And this was like, 10 years ago. [01:23:13] Speaker A: Okay. [01:23:14] Speaker B: And that school is called Inspired Teaching Demonstration Public Charter School. [01:23:18] Speaker A: Okay. [01:23:19] Speaker B: And I was the founding board chair. [01:23:20] Speaker A: Is that in D.C. as well? [01:23:21] Speaker B: That's in D.C. that's in Brooklyn. [01:23:24] Speaker A: Okay. [01:23:26] Speaker B: And I helped them start the charter. I helped them. You know, they were in the Manhattan building that Jamal owns off of 14th street, and then they were in another building where the Yu Yang, which is another charter school. They shared a space with them. And then we found them a permanent building, which is an old public school on 8th street in North. No, 4th street in Northeast, again in the Brooklyn area. [01:23:53] Speaker A: Your Catholic university. [01:23:54] Speaker B: Near Catholic University, yeah. So. But I was involved with them for, you know, several years, and I stepped down as board chair about three, four years ago. And since then, I have not been involved in any charter schools. I've been just sort of focused on my kids and getting them to college and supporting, you know, their respective universities and being active in those universities as much as I possibly can. But education is always going to be a part of me, and I'll get back into it in one way, shape or form eventually. But right now, I'm not involved with it. So family and business, pretty much, that's my world right now. Family and business. I got two kids in college and just navigating that. [01:24:42] Speaker A: So without disclosing any secrets, share some stories of your favorite and not so favorite experiences. I guess you've shared a lot of them already. Anything that you haven't shared that, you know, lessons that you've learned from them, per se? [01:24:54] Speaker B: Well, you know, I don't think so. [01:24:58] Speaker A: You've been very forthcoming so far. So. Okay. [01:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:03] Speaker A: All right. [01:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:05] Speaker A: So we Talked about a little bit just now, but your life priorities among family, work and giving back family number one. [01:25:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:25:14] Speaker A: Okay. Talk about your family. [01:25:16] Speaker B: I have two boys. One's a junior at Kelly School in Indiana, Bloomington, and the other one is a freshman at Elon University and he's interested in finance. So I'm an empty nester and interesting transition of being an empty nester, but I'm acclimating to that life. [01:25:36] Speaker A: Okay. [01:25:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I know my kids are great. Very close with them. Good kids. And you know, they. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. They both are in. They are both. They are both very interested in business. So we'll see, we'll see where that takes them. [01:25:53] Speaker A: Are they interested in real estate? [01:25:55] Speaker B: My older son is interested in real estate. [01:25:57] Speaker A: Okay, so has he worked as a laborer in any projects? [01:26:02] Speaker B: He did. I made him work at the L. He worked for McCullough. He was a laborer. [01:26:07] Speaker A: There you go. [01:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:08] Speaker A: Like father, like son type of thing. [01:26:11] Speaker B: That's cool. Yeah. And then last summer he actually worked. This summer that just passed, he actually worked for Newmark in the capital markets division. [01:26:18] Speaker A: Oh, here in D.C. yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's pretty cool. [01:26:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:23] Speaker A: So you keep your relationships there then? [01:26:26] Speaker B: Correct. [01:26:27] Speaker A: That's cool. So what advice would you give your 25 year old self today? [01:26:32] Speaker B: Well, myself, I would say before you again, everything is subjective and everything is circumstantial, but for me, work for another real estate company for at least 10 to 15 years before going into the family business. [01:26:53] Speaker A: And how long was it that you worked for? Okay, not long enough. [01:26:59] Speaker B: Not long enough. But hey, that's okay. [01:27:03] Speaker A: It's interesting. [01:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:05] Speaker A: So why 10 years? Why that long? I asked the same question to Toby Pazzuto. [01:27:10] Speaker B: I just think that 10 years is a good number of not just learning about the real estate business from someone else, but learning about yourself in that environment. And I think 10 years is a good. [01:27:27] Speaker A: Interesting. [01:27:29] Speaker B: It's just a good timeframe. There's no scientific evidence to back that up. That's what I think. 10 years sounds like a good number. [01:27:38] Speaker A: Well, you were in a unique circumstance there, obviously. If you could post a statement on a billboard on the Capitol Beltway for millions to see, what would it say? Gary? [01:27:49] Speaker B: So I'm at the field school, okay. And my founder of field school, Elizabeth Ely, at graduation, she got up there and she said, she said this, pointing to the mind. The brain doesn't work without this heart and this. The heart doesn't work without the brain, the mind. So my thing is it would say it would be a question. And is your heart and mind in concert? [01:28:18] Speaker A: That's great. I like that. So why does that resonate with you? [01:28:24] Speaker B: Because I think that the key to life, success, professionally and personally, is balance. You gotta have balance, and it's hard to keep the balance because you got all these external forces telling you other things, and you feel all these other things. But if you can keep the heart and the brain in concert, I think you can accomplish that. Balance. That, in my opinion, is one of the keys to success. [01:29:00] Speaker A: That's great. It's interesting. Balance is a word that's come up more than once in my interviews. Don Wood of Federal said that his whole life is based on balance. And he's an accountant, so that has extra. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:16] Speaker A: Sense to it. But that's really cool. [01:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I'm, you know, a lot of my colleagues, friends, whatever you want to call them, the ones that are most successful, they all have balance. So, you know, you see it and, you know, maybe I should practice that also. And I think it's a. It works. I think it's. [01:29:40] Speaker A: It's, you know, it's taken a while, probably. [01:29:42] Speaker B: It has. I'm a late bloomer, without a doubt, but, you know, hey, better late than never. [01:29:47] Speaker A: That's great. Well, thank you very much, Gary, for your time, your candid answers. I appreciate it. [01:29:55] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [01:29:55] Speaker A: Thank you. [01:29:56] Speaker B: Thank you.